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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 10:23:11 GMT -5
Moose, first off, the price Americans have paid over many decades for oil "IS" directly related to natural gas --- period! Energy is energy and NG is fast becoming a replacement for oil-based energy in many, many areas of everyday life. Simply put, the more solar, wind and NG we use == fewer Americans dying for oil!
Secondly, mineral rights, (sub surface property), are a separate class of real estate from surface rights. A property can be sold with or without the mineral rights.
Much of our gamelands system has the mineral rights reserved in private hands. Those people may have donated the surface but retained the right to mineral mining and recovery.
Apparently some state forests lands also have reserves of mineral rights in private hands. I did not know this but there is reference to it previously in this thread. In that case, it is inherently obvious that those people have expectations for their agreement to be honored. Otherwise, it seems, would be a sad state of government confiscation.
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Post by bawanajim on May 30, 2013 10:27:05 GMT -5
The gas you are talking contains plenty of liquids, and that is where the value is. Liquids can be trucked, gas is transported through pipe lines.
As far as owner ship of gas/ oil and minerals as well as timber rights are bought sold and traded all the time, mostly to finance further developments. Its public knowledge, go to the court house and look up who owns the OGM rights on any property your concerned with.
I will guess some one gave the land to the state to avoid tax liabilities and maintained the future OGM rights without the continual cost of property taxes that are only leveled on surface rights.
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Post by bawanajim on May 30, 2013 10:35:05 GMT -5
I'm sorry, didn't mean to be redundant, I didn't read Bowbums response, we were posting at the same time, my bad.
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Post by dennyf on May 30, 2013 18:46:35 GMT -5
From a Pennlive article:
The state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources will hold a public meeting 4-6 p.m. June 3 on Marcellus Shale issues in the Loyalsock State Forest, Lycoming County. The meeting will be held at Lycoming College in Williamsport.
“DCNR is responding to requests that the public be given the chance to provide the department with information and comments on possible gas development in the Loyalsock, in an area where we do not own the subsurface rights,” DCNR Secretary Richard Allan said.
As a result of a 1989 Commonwealth Court decision, about 25,000 acres of the Loyalsock State Forest are in a unique and complex situation in terms of surface ownership and rights.
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Post by dalesholder on May 30, 2013 19:49:32 GMT -5
They may not own the rights but they have the right to deny permits for drilling.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 19:52:00 GMT -5
While I truly value the preservation of natural areas, I value individual rights above most other popular desires.
"If" those mineral rights are legitimately privately owned and the owners wish to exercise their right to sell them, then no public meeting should have the effect of subverting those rights.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2013 19:54:11 GMT -5
"they have the right to deny permits for drilling." I think not without legitimate reasons that would be exercised on any property --- state or private.
But time will tell.
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Post by wentzler on May 30, 2013 21:18:09 GMT -5
In any contested endeavor...both 'extremes' lie through their teeth. Common sense lies somewhere nearly dead center, the far left and the far right...are so far out, each to their respective boindaries...and the some for good measure. They're both so far out they can't hear, see, or even fathom what common sense may lie somewhere east..or west. Those who know this simple fact, benefit from that 'knowledge'. Those who have a modicum of wisdom...do really well. Rare individual who can think a year out in front. A really rare few..can think 30 years out. Not my rule. Nor is the one which dictates only a miniscule fraction...use either their knowledge..or their wisdom for the benefit of future generations. I'm no wizard..but I've got my two acres, and those acres of my neighbors immediately to the north and south locked up tight as can be...with all the attendant benefits. I'd rather be lucky than 'good' any day
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 6:41:06 GMT -5
The big oil companies are spending tens of millions of dollars promoting gas development and its benefits, None of them are going to drill in an area that will cause undue surface disruption. With horizontals becoming longer and longer gas can be withdrawn from over a mile away. And there are plenty of more promising areas under development now and for years to come. That being said to deprive the proper owners the ability to profit form the rights they own is wrong, illegal and unconstitutional. If these permits are denied then compensation should be made to the owners of those rights.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 7:22:59 GMT -5
Well said Bawanajim. Ownership rights need preserved before anything else can be preserved.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 11:17:03 GMT -5
Well said Bawanajim. Ownership rights need preserved before anything else can be preserved. I disagree. The rights of the collective should outweigh the rights of individuals in some instances.
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 11:37:22 GMT -5
Well said Bawanajim. Ownership rights need preserved before anything else can be preserved. I disagree. The rights of the collective should outweigh the rights of individuals in some instances. There are many countries where this is the case, and since we have still maintained a large percentage of the original rights our forefathers guaranteed us in the bill of rights you are free to go to one of these countries, but here in America private property rights are exactly what separates us from socialist countries in Europe. The one thing our freedom does allow in this country is the ability for you and like thinking believers to do is purchase the very things you love and want to preserve, then enjoy those very same property rights that the current owners enjoy. Isn't America great!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 12:07:49 GMT -5
I disagree. The rights of the collective should outweigh the rights of individuals in some instances. There are many countries where this is the case, and since we have still maintained a large percentage of the original rights our forefathers guaranteed us in the bill of rights you are free to go to one of these countries, but here in America private property rights are exactly what separates us from socialist countries in Europe. The one thing our freedom does allow in this country is the ability for you and like thinking believers to do is purchase the very things you love and want to preserve, then enjoy those very same property rights that the current owners enjoy. Isn't America great! Oh yes america is so very different. Just ask those Sioux Indians. They own the Black Hills and refused to sell them but the US gov't took them by eminent domain and moved the Sioux onto reservations. The Guvm't then set aside a couple hundred million dollars for the Sioux (which they still refuse to accept) to ease it's conscience and make the deal official. Yes I agree, America is much better than those other countries like Canada who actually treat their indigenous people respectfully.
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 12:16:38 GMT -5
Hey didn't we give them some blankets to keep them warm? How about Long Island? We ponied up the asking price of $17:00 and some beads didn't we? But I'm sure Canada will accept you with open arms because you are certainly free to go. God Bless America!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 12:32:07 GMT -5
Hey didn't we give them some blankets to keep them warm? How about Long Island? We ponied up the asking price of $17:00 and some beads didn't we? But I'm sure Canada will accept you with open arms because you are certainly free to go. God Bless America! Conservative Republican huh? Don't give a flip about anybody that we steamrolled over to make this "great" country of ours. I know, I know; If there is oil- drill it. If there is gas- Frack it. If there is coal or minerals- mine it. If there are trees- cut 'em down. And by God farm everything that is flat enough to plow and turn the corn into fuel. And of course pollution is just a necessary byproduct of the all important Capitalism. These are our "God given rights" after all. Although I can't find these rights in the Bible....................Maybe where God told us to be good stewards?.........Naw that's not it either.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 12:36:24 GMT -5
Remember kids, Christ is going to destroy those who destroy the earth. Revelation 11:18
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 12:50:21 GMT -5
I'm an earth first kinda guy! I believe we have plenty of time to rape the other planets.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 13:03:48 GMT -5
I'm an earth first kinda guy!I believe we have plenty of time to rape the other planets. Good to hear!
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 14:01:47 GMT -5
Mike I have a 150 acre tract here in Crawford county that I treasure, it is beautiful and I spend time most every day there as the land is attached to the home I live in. But I am a strong believer in private property rights also, two of the parcels I own are subdivided into lots for home building sites, that will never happen while I'm alive. The county leadership would love to see new homes and a larger tax base, I do not. I will look for a old link to some pictures from my property to post for your viewing pleasure. Heres the link, I hope it works. www.huntingnet.com/forum/bowhunting/240418-just-walk-my-woods.html
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Post by Dutch on May 31, 2013 14:29:17 GMT -5
Well said Bawanajim. Ownership rights need preserved before anything else can be preserved. I disagree. The rights of the collective should outweigh the rights of individuals in some instances. I sorta agree with that, to an extent. But, if the collective wants those mineral rights, they still need to pay for them and compensate the owners. The "collective", the state, doesn't have the money to compensate the owners, I'm guessing.
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 19:34:00 GMT -5
Why does the "Collective " have to be the state?
If I have the time I will try to find whom owns these rights, I'm betting its a "collective" in its self, A group of fore thinking people, out to make a profit!
You have the same right to "collectively " buy these rights. This is America! Stand up and be proud!
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2013 19:35:22 GMT -5
It is a sad commentary to classify folks like you did Mike. I'm an independent but that don't mean a hoot as to what you think I believe about caring or not caring on issues. Frankly you're stance doesn't remind me of Socialism it reminds me more of classic Communism. To take that which is legitimately owned from private hands and put it in "der people's hands" because it's purdy kind of sucks!
I have no guilt for slavery, Indian problems or anything other inequity those before me committed. African tribal leaders kidnapped, raped and enslaved rival tribes, Indian tribes did the same and slaughtered rival warriors --- took territory before white men ever moved west.
That don't excuse unfair treatment but you would continue such thievery by taking that which is legally owned --- just for the pleasure of others.
I also don't know how much time you've spent in Canada but what I saw on my 11 stays there, (next to the flying dust reservation in Meadow lake), was a sad state of humanity wasted in Lysol and shaving lotions. Yeah Canada treats em good alright......................!
Natives in all of North America are in sad shape. No one can instill pride where there is no will to be prideful. A few pick themselves up and shake off the excuses but many just stick out their hands. Keep this in mind, to my knowledge no native person is forbidden from leaving the reservation and becoming a part of society.
Me? I didn't do it, my dad didn't do it neither did any of my ancestors and I have no guilt nor debt for it.
Let's keep America great for acknowledging our mistakes and improving and being the most conscientious country on earth. (Ever seen Canadian surface mining and oil exploration going on right now?) Nah.............
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Post by Dutch on May 31, 2013 19:42:39 GMT -5
In this case, the State (collective) owns the surface rights to a unique narural area. If they want to preserve and protect the entire thing, then they must buy the mineral rights.
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Post by bawanajim on May 31, 2013 20:37:47 GMT -5
Nothing says a individual can't purchase those rights from the present owner and not sign a lease to allow drilling.
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Post by Dutch on May 31, 2013 21:11:24 GMT -5
Possible, but highly unlikely.
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