|
Post by Dutch on Mar 3, 2016 19:23:45 GMT -5
Red, is this enough proof for you?
|
|
|
Post by cspot on Mar 3, 2016 19:27:06 GMT -5
It will make no difference what I want. I'm not a joiner of groups. I hate group-think. I thought for a while I would not support any effort to oppose SH, but if there is such a group, I'd throw my support behind them. I never thought I'd see the day when we'd call shooting deer with crossbows archery hunting. The squeaky wheels got the grease in that cause and I expect the will in this matter, too. I'll just be happy going about things as I have always done and hope those that are so unhappy because they cannot hunt on Sunday take a kid exploring a local woodlot instead. It may do as much to mentor them to be a hunter than anything else we do. Wow! You never miss an opportunity to whine about crossbows being legalized. You can still do things the way you have always done. Heck you said you still kill a buck about every year and crossbows have been legal for about 6 years or so. I guess the sky didn't fall.
|
|
|
Post by redarrow on Mar 3, 2016 19:31:41 GMT -5
They are the jewel in the crown of the "make it easy enough for me crowd", in discussions like this there are parallels to be drawn.
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 3, 2016 19:32:59 GMT -5
Ridge, you make it too easy. Is there anything that you are satisfied with when it comes to hunting PA? You got your crossbow. You want earlier gobbler season, sunday hunting, baiting? Baiting? I said I support it in the SRAs. I believe even you said you could possibly support it in urban deer control areas. I have never said I support it outside of the SRA in PA.
|
|
|
Post by cspot on Mar 3, 2016 19:34:48 GMT -5
Red, is this enough proof for you? Red doesn't concern himself with facts. He likes to live with his preconceived notions.
|
|
|
Post by redarrow on Mar 3, 2016 19:55:36 GMT -5
It impossible to "prove" what the PGC will do. They were very slow in reducing tags in areas that needed it. And many folks believe the WMU are to big, will they ever be changed? I like things the way they are now and have been for decades. I would hate to see things change and reduce the herd further.
I may have some preconceived notions. I have a notion that MOST supporters of crossbow full inclusion, baiting, air bow/arrow guns, etc.. will never be satisfied and just enjoy all we already have. Except for guys with employment conflicts, most could find time to hunt with little problem-except for priorities.
|
|
|
Post by bushmaster on Mar 3, 2016 19:57:52 GMT -5
Like I said!
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 3, 2016 20:18:14 GMT -5
It impossible to "prove" what the PGC will do. And that does not change with or without SH. The current Comisshes seem to be moving towards more deer. Those before them moved towards less deer. The point is SH has little to do with which way the deer population goes. They already have the tools to do what they want.
|
|
|
Post by redarrow on Mar 3, 2016 20:23:33 GMT -5
But ridge, I will have to see more proof of the move toward more deer before I believe it.
|
|
|
Post by cspot on Mar 3, 2016 20:40:22 GMT -5
But ridge, I will have to see more proof of the move toward more deer before I believe it. Antlerless allocations by WMU for the 2015-16 seasons, with last year's allocations in parentheses, are: WMU 1A 46,000 (47,000); WMU 1B 29,000 (30,000); WMU 2A 43,000 (46,000); WMU 2B 61,000 (60,000); WMU 2C 31,000 (38,000); WMU 2D 55,000 (61,000); WMU 2E 21,000 (21,000); WMU 2F 22,000 (27,000); WMU 2G 22,000 (22,000); WMU 2H 6,500 (5,500); WMU 3A 19,000 (18,000); WMU 3B 28,000 (33,000);WMU 3C 36,000 (32,000); WMU 3D 25,000 (25,000); WMU 4A 30,000 (28,000); WMU 4B 26,000 (26,000); WMU 4C 25,000 (25,000); WMU 4D 33,000 (33,000); WMU 4E 25,000 (21,000); WMU 5A 19,000 (19,000); WMU 5B 50,000 (49,000); WMU 5C 70,000 (95,000); and WMU 5D 24,000 (18,000).
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 4, 2016 7:57:44 GMT -5
We went from 2 week concurrent statewide to a split season statewide(except the SRAs) over how many years? They have been moving this direction for a while now. Foresters are expressing concerns about growing deer populations in many areas. Antlerless allocations have been less than recommendations lately as well. The current board has been certainly moving towards a desire for more deer.
|
|
|
Post by Dutch on Mar 4, 2016 9:34:10 GMT -5
The PGC own data does not support that deer pops have increased all that much, so far, so how can the foresters be complaining?
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 4, 2016 11:24:18 GMT -5
The PGC own data does not support that deer pops have increased all that much, so far, so how can the foresters be complaining? Because they hate deer, lol.
|
|
|
Post by Dutch on Mar 4, 2016 11:45:52 GMT -5
They really took the 2A deer population down Gene, according to the data.
Just what you were saying all along.
68,000 in 2012
30,000 in 2015
Post hunt numbers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 11:50:49 GMT -5
Freytown posted a complete list of antlerless allocations for every year since 2003, I believe. I had saved the file, but not having used it in some time, I recently deleted it. If anyone wants me to, I can try to retrieve it from my Trash file, or maybe FT can post it again?
Update: I found the file. It is huge. Perhaps it would be best to ask for the allocations for a specific WMU and let me compile that.
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 4, 2016 12:38:27 GMT -5
They really took the 2A deer population down Gene, according to the data. Just what you were saying all along. 68,000 in 2012 30,000 in 2015 Post hunt numbers. Yep. They can manipulate all the want. With or without SH.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2016 15:57:29 GMT -5
Here are the antlerless license allocations for WMU 2A from Freytown's data. 2003-45,000 2004- 55,000 2005- 55,000 2006- 55,000 2007- 60,000 2008- 55,000 2009- 55,000 2010- 54,879 2011- 65,000 2012- 59,000 2013- 49,000 2014- 46,000 2015-43,000
|
|
|
Post by cspot on Mar 4, 2016 16:27:57 GMT -5
IIRC Mutt in 2011 is when we (2A) went to a split season instead of 2 week concurrent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 6:52:40 GMT -5
Anyone interested in another WMU? Well, here are the numbers for 2C, which is the WMU in which Camp Rip-N-Tear is located. Antlerless allocations for WMU 2C- 2003-2015. 2003- 65,000 2004- 75,000 2005- 53,000 2006- 49,000 2007- 49,000 2008- 49,000 2009- 49,000 2010- 44,107 2011- 58,000 I believe this is the year we went to the split season format. 2012- 50,000 2013- 43,000 2014- 38,000 2015- 31,000
|
|
|
Post by Dutch on Mar 5, 2016 9:52:38 GMT -5
3A has gone from 29,000 down to 19,000 and a 7 day seven season from concurrent.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2016 12:06:01 GMT -5
Not quite the drop we have had in 2C, Dutch. It looks like only about a 35% drop in allocation. In 2C we have gone from 75,000 at the peak in 2004 to 31,000 last year. That is a reduction of about 60%. We must have been in much worse shape than yinz in 3A. Or maybe we did a better job of herd reduction?
|
|
|
Post by ridgecommander on Mar 5, 2016 13:31:04 GMT -5
And to think that some feel SH would be a major player in deer numbers. Populations have ebbed and flowed, allocations have risen and fallen. None of it would change with SH. All of the tools already exist for the PGC to do what they want with deer.
|
|
|
Post by Dutch on Mar 5, 2016 15:17:02 GMT -5
Not quite the drop we have had in 2C, Dutch. It looks like only about a 35% drop in allocation. In 2C we have gone from 75,000 at the peak in 2004 to 31,000 last year. That is a reduction of about 60%. We must have been in much worse shape than yinz in 3A. Or maybe we did a better job of herd reduction? Just saying 3A went down a good bit in just recent years. 3A is the ONLY unit in the state that biologists are asking for an increase in the deer herd.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2016 7:01:57 GMT -5
There is no question in my mind that herd reduction was successful in reducing the whitetail herd. There is also no question that it would have been more successful in some areas than in others. That does not negate the overall benefit of reducing the herd. While in some areas there were way too many deer and they had done considerable damage to the ecosystem, in other areas that may not have been the case. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" when it comes to game management. I know that is the mantra of the USPeeers, but it just doesn't work that way. If one compares antlerless allocations, one can easily see that there is much difference in the number of them issued in the early first decade of this century and in more recent years, and it is obvious in WMU 2C. The reduction in doe tags has been pretty significant. We have been seeing fewer deer during recent years. That is a fact. Still, Dave, Larry, and I are in agreement. We like the current situation because we enjoy seeing big, healthy deer, and that is what we have. While hunting has not been all that easy, last year was the first year since we started hunting at Camp Rip-N-Tear that all three of us took bucks. Granted, we are not trophy hunters, and two of the three of us take the first legal buck that rambles past us. Now as to health and big deer.
I can remember the good old days when "Did you get your buck?" was usually answered with, "Yeah, I busted up a spike the first morning." It was typical for that yearling spike or four point to weigh in the neighborhood of 80 pounds, field dressed. The bucks we have been taking in recent years are monsters by comparison. Our three bucks this past fall weighed 184, 150, and 139 pounds. Due to the reduction in our deer herd, we decided not to fill doe tags this past season, unless it was from the Mount Davis DMAP area. Two years ago, we took two doe that each weighed over 150 pounds. Those were huge does.
The ecosystem in our area of the state could easily support more deer without much damage, but I would caution against a swift move to do that. Damage to an ecosystem can be swift. Recovery can take a long time. I might support, at least in some WMUs, the elimination of that early doe season in October. It seems to have done its job, and I do not believe that it is necessary anymore, at least where we hunt.
|
|