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Post by davet on Aug 8, 2017 21:57:18 GMT -5
Just because an individual choose's to use a crossbow, doesn't mean YOU (YOU = any other hunter) can't choose to use a recurve.
In rifle season, if I haven't taken a buck yet, I will use my Winchester M88 in .308. If I have taken a buck with my crossbow, I will have one doe tag, and I will use a 44 mag revolver, 45-70 Marlin, or a 38-55 Winchester. The .308 will kill 'em out to 400 yards. The rest......I gotta position myself to get close. It's tougher to do when your like me. But it's not about the kill.....it's about the hunt.
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Post by redarrow on Aug 9, 2017 5:56:20 GMT -5
I know several kids who started with xbows, none of them have switched or shown interest in doing so. As far as not having time to learn. That's simply a reflection of the excuse making, please make it easier for me, direction our country has gone. How can we expect any different for the kids of such "hunters".
We can try to color things any way we want as just one more "feel good" measure. It does not lead to middle agers becoming archery hunters-it allows the to become crossbow hunters. It can be likened to hitting off the lady's tee, affirmative action, participation trophies, etc. We have a history of making all kinds of considerations for many things, I suppose hunting should be n different.
You say I hear only what I want. I believe many deny the obvious to feel good about their choices or to spare feelings by pretending. Crossbows are legal, fire away. But if ya bring the subject up and state your opinion on it, allow that others have different views and should be allowed to state them.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 6:39:49 GMT -5
I know several kids who started with xbows, none of them have switched or shown interest in doing so. I was heavily involved in the movement to legalize crossbows in Pa. During that time, I had stacks of statistics and data from other states where crossbow inclusion already occurred. One side feared the facts, the other side embraced them. The side that embraced and used them won the discussion. This is one statistic that may surprise you. From Ohio, youths than began archery hunting with a crossbow overwhelmingly switched to compound bows in their teen years and kept hunting with them. I think it was like 60-70%. Crossbows are seen as a positive recruiting tool for vertical archery. As archery hunters, age, they switch back to crossbows. So, as is usually the case, you are wrong in your assumptions, stereotypes, and innuendo....... There is no reason to believe the same will not happen here. In fact, I know 6 youths that began hunting with crossbows that now are using vertical compounds. This is all good as the ranks of hunters continue to shrink. Archery remains a bright spot on the hunting landscape, as far as numbers go, and crossbows are a vital part of that.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 6:44:04 GMT -5
We can try to color things any way we want as just one more "feel good" measure. It does not lead to middle agers becoming archery hunters-it allows the to become crossbow hunters. It can be likened to hitting off the lady's tee, affirmative action, participation trophies, etc. We have a history of making all kinds of considerations for many things, I suppose hunting should be n different. Sort of like when compounds were legalized as "bows". Did all of those "middle agers" pick up a compound and all of a sudden become archery hunters - or did they just become compound hunters? Compound bows changed the archery landscape way more than crossbows did or ever will. Hypocrites............... You hit from the "ladys tee" before I did, most likely...........
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Post by davet on Aug 9, 2017 7:26:05 GMT -5
I've always contended that hunting with a compound is easier than hunting with a crossbow. I've done both. Mostly compound until I couldn't any more. Crossbows are heavier, less flexible to use in terms of "shooting options" from a tree stand or ground, and when shouldered, block the shooters view of more "what is around" that target.
What do I mean by "What is around"? My best description would be when, years ago I was hunting from a ground blind. It was nearing evening and I was hunting about 30 yards from a well used scrape. I could hear a deer (several actually) coming up over the hill to my right. Well, a nice 8 point steps out to smell and paw at the scrape. I pull up my compound and draw (as he was a nice deer) when I see more movement coming over the hill. I stop the aiming and look to the right.....and there stands this beautiful 11 point that I had heard of, but not yet seen. Well.....I then knew it was time to either shoot the 8, or hope the 11 would move him out and then get a chance at the BIG BOY. Well, I chose not to shoot the 8 point.......and when the 11 point began to come into the shooting lane.....him and a doe did so at the same time!!! Doe in between me and the 11 point!! ARGGGGG!! So, I got no shooting. (Greed is an amazing thing.....but the rack and size difference was one I was more than willing to roll the dice!!)
I know that if I were shooting a crossbow, my eye would have been focused on the scope crosshairs, and the crossbow would have blocked the view of the big one. You could look at it and say I blew a chance to take an 8 point.......or as will happen in hunting.....I chose to roll the dice. BTW.....that year I "ended up" with a 7 point that I took over the same scrape. Sometimes you get the bear......sometimes the bear gets you.
But, it's a great story.....and was a great year in bow hunting!!!
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Post by redarrow on Aug 9, 2017 8:21:33 GMT -5
![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) OK, then. smileys-whistling-823718
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Post by davet on Aug 9, 2017 8:49:38 GMT -5
Well, Red.....give us your experience when you use a crossbow for a season. Then tell me that a compound isn't better. Of course, one has to practice with a compound bow......but not like "back in the day" when shooting a recurve three times a week was necessary to put 5 arrows in an frozen orange juice can lid at 20 yards. The compound bow is easy to shoot.
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 8:55:42 GMT -5
I like hunting with a bow because I like tinkering with a bow.I use it because it's a hobby and it's fun.It really has nothing to do with it's effectiveness.My son started shooting a bow when he was big enough to pull one back.He kept shooting it because it was fun.When I felt he was ready to hunt archery season,I bought him a crossbow because it was really the only option.He used it successfully but switched to a compound last year because he was ready.He shoots his bow daily and has become pretty effective with it.he couldn't do that with a crossbow when I'm not home and he probably wouldn't want to because shooting them really isn't all that fun.I'm glad he's using a bow but wouldn't force him to and I'm relatively sure he'll use the crossbow the last week when bear runs concurrently.With that said,the kids I know who are using compounds all have fathers who use compounds but there isn't many.We hit several 3D shoots and I've yet to see another youth on the sheet.Thats a shame in my opinion.It's not a shame because a crossbow is easier.It's a shame because the kids are missing out on a lot of fun.
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 9:08:00 GMT -5
Well, Red.....give us your experience when you use a crossbow for a season. Then tell me that a compound isn't better. Of course, one has to practice with a compound bow......but not like "back in the day" when shooting a recurve three times a week was necessary to put 5 arrows in an frozen orange juice can lid at 20 yards. The compound bow is easy to shoot. Dave,maybe your crossbow is heavy and cumbersome but they all aren't.I bought my son a bowtech stryker.It's a light,narrow crossbow that's quiet,extremly accurate and shoots flat.It's really no heavier than my Elite,it's no more of a hassle to haul around and it's not cumbersome in a tree.It is flat out a deer killing machine and far more effective and easier to use than any compound.I'm not saying that because I think anyone is any less of a hunter for using one.It's just a fact.My kid has been making shots with a crossbow at 9 year and 10 years old that I wouldn't have taken with a compound and I'm pretty effective with a compound.There most certainly is a difference between a recurve and compound but there's also a huge difference in effectiveness between a compound and crossbow.There's no shame in using a crossbow and they make you no less of a hunter.To say that there isn't much of a difference is way off base.I used to test hunters for a hunt.You have to shoot 3 out 5 BH's in a 6" circle at 20 yards.Not many fail with a crossbow but more than 50% failed with a compound.It was actually scary to watch.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 9:15:46 GMT -5
When I felt he was ready to hunt archery season,I bought him a crossbow because it was really the only option.He used it successfully but switched to a compound last year because he was ready.He shoots his bow daily and has become pretty effective with it.he couldn't do that with a crossbow when I'm not home and he probably wouldn't want to because shooting them really isn't all that fun.I'm glad he's using a bow but wouldn't force him to and I'm relatively sure he'll use the crossbow the last week when bear runs concurrently. My experience as well. Most of the kids I know that started with crossbows are now shooting or plan to shoot compounds when they are able too.
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Post by whilekioti on Aug 9, 2017 9:29:48 GMT -5
I know several kids who started with xbows, none of them have switched or shown interest in doing so. As far as not having time to learn. That's simply a reflection of the excuse making, please make it easier for me, direction our country has gone. How can we expect any different for the kids of such "hunters". We can try to color things any way we want as just one more "feel good" measure. It does not lead to middle agers becoming archery hunters-it allows the to become crossbow hunters. It can be likened to hitting off the lady's tee, affirmative action, participation trophies, etc. We have a history of making all kinds of considerations for many things, I suppose hunting should be n different. You say I hear only what I want. I believe many deny the obvious to feel good about their choices or to spare feelings by pretending. Crossbows are legal, fire away. But if ya bring the subject up and state your opinion on it, allow that others have different views and should be allowed to state them. You said in a earlier post that you agreed as most hunters do that hunting isn't a competition...yet you compare it to a competitive sport like golf...I don't play golf...but in golf isn't their also handicaps for the able bodied in order to compete with those whos skill level is greater? I agree that a crossbow has a advantage over a compound bow...and IMO a compound bow has a even greater advantage over a traditional bow...it is also true that we all have different skill levels, and many of us need/choose those advantages in order to enjoy archery hunting...IMO all of that is irrelevant because hunting isn't a competition. As hunters we choose the level of difficulty that challenges us and don't deserve to be criticized by those who choose for themselves a greater level of difficulty. Those who hold others to their standards are the true ruination of our and any sport. I don't "deny" the "obvious" I am just willing to embrace our differences...I "spare" no ones "feelings" by "pretending"...I judge no one. I started archery hunting in 1970BC...(before compounds)...I heard the same opinions of compounds, sight pins, release aids, etc. as yours are to crossbows...you are welcome to your opinions...as I said...just offering a alternative point of view.
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Post by redarrow on Aug 9, 2017 9:33:55 GMT -5
Well, Red.....give us your experience when you use a crossbow for a season. Then tell me that a compound isn't better. Of course, one has to practice with a compound bow......but not like "back in the day" when shooting a recurve three times a week was necessary to put 5 arrows in an frozen orange juice can lid at 20 yards. The compound bow is easy to shoot. You won't see me using a crossbow for a season, or a day. I shot one bolt from my sister in-law's crossbow that she started using after a back injury made it impossible for her to draw the 45 pound compound he had used successfully for many years. The bolt hit the edge of a 1" bulls eye at twenty-five yards. It was the only time I have ever shot one. Tell me again it's harder than a compound. Add that to the fact that it rests at full draw 'til the crosshair settles and the trigger is pulled. The things are legal for anyone who wants to use them now. To many it will be all the challenge they need to be satisfied with their hunting. So.......like I said before -OK then, Carry on.
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Post by redarrow on Aug 9, 2017 9:37:25 GMT -5
BC-before compounds. I like it. Now BCB-before crossbows. I like it too
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 9:49:32 GMT -5
Just based on participation at 3D shoots,I don't really think that will be the case.In fact,Participation is way down across the board and I do attribute that partly to crossbows.I have nothing against crossbows either,just stating my observations.I do a pretty good job brainwashing my kids.I've never been negative about crossbows to my son and in fact,I've encouraged their use and always made him feel that there was nothing wrong.Hell,I actually killed a deer with the dam thing just so he wouldn't feel like he was cheating.Still,he pretty much does what I do so he wants to use a bow.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 10:17:48 GMT -5
Just based on participation at 3D shoots,I don't really think that will be the case.In fact,Participation is way down across the board and I do attribute that partly to crossbows.I have nothing against crossbows either,just stating my observations.I do a pretty good job brainwashing my kids.I've never been negative about crossbows to my son and in fact,I've encouraged their use and always made him feel that there was nothing wrong.Hell,I actually killed a deer with the dam thing just so he wouldn't feel like he was cheating.Still,he pretty much does what I do so he wants to use a bow. Do these clubs allow crossbows during 3D shoots? There are many around here that still won't allow them to shoot the course.
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 11:04:01 GMT -5
I never asked but I doubt it as I never saw one on the course.My point is,the lack of participation points to the fact that many have abandoned the compound for the crossbow.Again,for the record,I'm not disparaging crossbows or those who use them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 11:33:55 GMT -5
Here's an opinion that'll turn your head inside out. I believe shooting instinctive with a traditional bow in a hunting situation is easier than a crossbow and/or a compound bow.
I don't have to worry about judging yardage. Don't have to choose the correct sight-pin. Don't have to worry about bending at the waist from an elevated position. Don't have to worry about keeping my bow perfectly level (horizontal or vertical. Don't have to worry about a finger hitting a trigger. Don't have to worry about screws or bolts being loose. Don't have to remember to carry a release. Don't have to try & figure out if a bad shot was due to equipment failure or archer error (a bad shot is my fault 100% of the time). Don't have to be concerned about not seeing a sight pin in low light conditions. Don't have to carry around a piece of heavy equipment. Don't have to re-sight in my bow if it falls to the ground.
All I have to do is pick a spot, draw, anchor, & release...from any position. Easy.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 11:40:16 GMT -5
I never asked but I doubt it as I never saw one on the course.My point is,the lack of participation points to the fact that many have abandoned the compound for the crossbow.. There are quite a few who made the switch for sure. In time it will probably be like 60% crossbow, 39% compound, 1% traditional.
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Post by ridgecommander on Aug 9, 2017 11:41:29 GMT -5
Here's an opinion that'll turn your head inside out. I believe shooting instinctive with a traditional bow in a hunting situation is easier than a crossbow and/or a compound bow. I'm not to that point yet with the longbow you gave me, lol. I look forward to when I am, though. I still shoot it often.
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 12:49:05 GMT -5
I'd agree with that Bob.I think a good instinctive shooter is a far more effective hunter.Getting good the hard part.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 12:51:49 GMT -5
I never asked but I doubt it as I never saw one on the course.My point is,the lack of participation points to the fact that many have abandoned the compound for the crossbow.. There are quite a few who made the switch for sure. In time it will probably be like 60% crossbow, 39% compound, 1% traditional. Those evil, privileged 1 percenters...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 13:09:27 GMT -5
I'd agree with that Bob.I think a good instinctive shooter is a far more effective hunter.Getting good the hard part. I subscribe to the Hernan Cortez Method of learning. When Cortez and his ships reached Mexico's shores, he ordered the ships be burned, thereby leaving his men no choice but to conquer & survive. Same thing with traditional archery. If you think you want to do it, sell all your compounds & crossbows, and be forced to get good with traditional bows. I think most people, if they keep their modern equipment, will revert back to modern equipment when the learning curve takes a step or two back. But once one understands there isn't a technology in the archery world that comes close to what the human brain can do, the magic starts happening. Getting good all rests in between your ears.
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Post by davet on Aug 9, 2017 13:55:31 GMT -5
Tell me again it's harder than a compound. Ok, It's harder to use a crossbow hunting than to use a compound bow. There.....I did it. I said it again. And until YOU actually hunt with one for a season......your opinion is like a Monday morning NFL quarterback. Yeah.....you've never played in the NFL either. Experience is a great teacher. Opinion without that.....is a paper bag.
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Post by davet on Aug 9, 2017 14:06:29 GMT -5
Dave,maybe your crossbow is heavy and cumbersome but they all aren't.I bought my son a bowtech stryker. Actually, the only crossbow I've owned is a Horton Havoc (the now defunct Horton Co.) I purchased it because it was lightweight and had, because of the reverse limb technology, extremely good balance. A healthy person could shoot this using just one arm.....that's how well it is balanced. BTW.....I did LOL on your comment about guys not getting 3 of 5 in a 6" circle at 20 yards. With today's compounds I am at a loss why this can't be done. I went to the crossbow because I wounded two in archery season. I figured it was foolish to keep using a bow that I could not hold on point when it mattered. Why cripple 'em up when a crossbow would do it from a rest. But with the Horton, the hold position was easier yet because of it's balance. I've lost a lot of strength in my left arm. As such I can't hold a bow on point for long. My right arm is fine so the Horton made sense. I've not had any runaway's with the Horton.
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Post by dougell on Aug 9, 2017 14:54:32 GMT -5
Dave,I'm fine with anyone using any weapon.I have a safe full of pretty effective rifles so who am I to judge?A crossbow is easier and more effective than a compound and they get better every year.I'm fine with that also.I don't use a compound because it's any more or less effective than a crossbow.I use a compound because I find it fun to shoot.I would use a recurve and may take the plunge soon but to be honest,the thought of a buck walking past at 35 yards and me not being able to drill it is more than I can take.I've shot,carried,watched my kid kill deer and even killed deer myself with a crossbow.They're way easier and way more effective.I agree that it's not all that hard to get someone shooting a compound accurately in the yard.That all changes when you add vbulky cloths,changing temps and shots at awkward angles because form is effected.Form is not effected with a crossbow and that's the major difference.
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