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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 18:42:01 GMT -5
Not particularly and I'll tell you why: Many states have no sales tax, but seem to have a better handle on public expenditures of all tax revenues, than PA does. Of states that do have a sales tax, ours seems to be about average?
Did you forget that Wolf wanted not only an increase in several state taxes, including imposing the sales tax on many items not currently taxed, but wanted to increase our income tax rate? Is that already high enough, or do you think that needed to be increased?
State Sales Tax increase vs a hunting license increase, is overly-simplistic apples and oranges.
One is a straight up tax, the other is a form of "user fee" directly related to services rendered - in this case, wildlife management and hunting regulation.
Most classes of taxes collected by PA can be spent on whatever elected officials deem necessary. Some exceptions exist, but state tax revenues can be shifted around wherever the General Assembly and Governor want them to go. Look at what Wolf tried to pull in giving larger sums to big city school districts (much of his voter base) and ignoring more rural area schools, in the recent budget battle.
Hunting license fees can generally only be spent on certain expenditures covered by those titles that govern PGC. Agency license fees also dictate to a large extent, how much we get from the Feds, not just what our share of P-R funds is each year. Oodles of regulation that determine how license funds may be used.
Face the fact that the General Assembly has been trying to browbeat PGC for years by denying them a needed license increase, mostly for political purposes of "looking good" to the folks back home.
Oops, then there's this gem:
So it's not the fault of those in the public employee sector, but somehow the fault of their own union leaders?
How does one justify such a comment, when those union members were the ones wanting better benefits and higher salaries VIA their own union representatives pushing for them?? While the government may be incapable of wise fiscal policies, don't see how you can accuse PGC management of the same thing, when they've become pretty good at squeezing the most out of limited funding sources. Especially with no license increase in over 17 years.
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Post by ridgecommander on May 22, 2016 19:21:52 GMT -5
State Sales Tax increase vs a hunting license increase, is overly-simplistic apples and oranges. One is a straight up tax, the other is a form of "user fee" directly related to services rendered - in this case, wildlife management and hunting regulation. This "user fee" includes sending the majority of it right to unsustainable pension and benefit packages. A minority of it goes to wildlife management and hunting regulation. It is what it is. Might as well call it what it is. Workers work. Managers and union leaders are supposed to understand finances and work together to ensure a fiscally sound future. No business is run into the ground by the rank and file. |
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 21:36:04 GMT -5
Sorry to disagree again, but a rank and file that supports over-reaching union reps and goes along with the "greed" as you call it, have indeed run businesses into the ground. Seen it happen more than once, it continues today. And I'll give you a prime example of it, because you'll want to argue on about it.
Thirty years ago there was a thriving, family-owned trucking company in Wellsboro that had endured for years. They mostly got along on hauling freight for the several manufacturing facilities in the area back then, like Corning and several others that had operations in the northern tier. Somewhere along the way, that trucking company went union, Teamsters to be precise. It was a battle, but the owner went along with it and things went pretty well for many years.
Then, facing some challenges like freight deregulation, area plant closings and a general economic downturn, the owner petitioned the Teamsters for some wage/benefit cuts.
Teamsters "national" agreed, left it up to the drivers to vote on making some concessions, or not. Had three cousins driving for that company at the time, one of which was the Teamsters Local rep. He met with the owner, was shown the books and urged his fellow drivers to approve the concessions. Because the owner said he was not going to stay in business to lose money. No concession, no jobs. He'd sell his equipment and retire.
Drivers voted it down almost unanimously, owner closed the doors right quick, sold everything off and that was that. No more high paying jobs. Drivers refused to earn less than their colleagues driving for bigger companies, in larger population areas. Although my cousin pointed out that they had it pretty good, considering they lived in a rural area and earned many times what most folks around there earned. Didn't matter, they wanted what they felt they deserved.
There are several companies around here that some of my friends worked for over a period of twenty or thirty years and that no longer exist. Companies that had prospered for a few generations. Same deal, no one in their unions wanted to make any concessions in the face of changing times and rough economics, out they went.
Greed, stupidity and stubborness sometimes go hand in hand and no one wins. Regardless of whose fault it is, doubt we'll ever seen anyone in any public employee union give anything back. And so it goes.
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Post by Dutch on May 23, 2016 5:10:44 GMT -5
Look at the CAT plant in York years back. Long stike, a year maybe, some concessions, not enough, and it closed.
1000 jobs lost.
CAT workers had it WAY better than anyone in the area, but....
I've heard time and time again that it's not the fault of our government employees and that we owe them.
Well, it sure as hell isn't my fault either, so, why should I have to pay for the sins of government idiots and union idiots?
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Post by timberdoodle on May 23, 2016 5:19:49 GMT -5
I look at the license increase same as a toll increase on the Pa Pike.. Users pay the fee. Comparing the license increase to a tax is asinine.
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Post by Dutch on May 23, 2016 6:10:44 GMT -5
I look at the license increase same as a toll increase on the Pa Pike.. Users pay the fee. Comparing the license increase to a tax is asinine. The General Assembly and Rendell required the T-pike to pay the state $500 MILLION per year to balance the budget..... That is still going on. |
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Post by timberdoodle on May 23, 2016 6:28:51 GMT -5
and the increase in fares ie/ tolls was paid by whom pray tell? The cost of doing business is what it is... spmeone has to pay for it. Did anyone suggest that the turnpike lower expenses to cover the $500 M hit?
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 6:45:25 GMT -5
I look at the license increase same as a toll increase on the Pa Pike.. Users pay the fee. Comparing the license increase to a tax is asinine. Not seeing the similarities in the context of the discussion regarding where most of the monies would go is asinine. |
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Post by davet on May 23, 2016 7:30:11 GMT -5
Didn't that Romney guy mention something about this eight years or so ago? About Pennsylvania's pension issue? If he did, I can't recall......but then....if your relying on my memory.....you got really big problems. |
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Post by davet on May 23, 2016 7:36:55 GMT -5
One is a straight up tax, the other is a form of "user fee" directly related to services rendered - in this case, wildlife management and hunting regulation. This "user fee" includes sending the majority of it right to unsustainable pension and benefit packages. A minority of it goes to wildlife management and hunting regulation. It is what it is. Might as well call it what it is. Do you have a source that shows where either the increase goes to this "unsustainable pension and benefit package", or is this an assumption that you are stating? |
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 7:44:02 GMT -5
Do you have a source that shows where either the increase goes to this "unsustainable pension and benefit package", or is this an assumption that you are stating? I believe PGC testified to the state that more than 60% of their budget is personnel costs and that pension and benefit obligations are the greatest burden. |
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Post by GlennD on May 23, 2016 7:51:10 GMT -5
School tax is a "user fee". I ain't a "user" and never have been, but I sure have been paying the fee for the last 35 years since I bought land in PA.  |
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 7:52:10 GMT -5
Somewhere along the way, that trucking company went union, Teamsters to be precise. It was a battle, but the owner went along with it and things went pretty well for many years. . And there you go. Mismanagement along the way that led to the ultimate demise. Owners allowing workers to unionize and bloated contracts negotiated that ultimately resulted in catastrophe. |
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 7:55:22 GMT -5
Somewhere along the way, that trucking company went union, Teamsters to be precise. It was a battle, but the owner went along with it and things went pretty well for many years. . And there you go. Mismanagement along the way that led to the ultimate demise. Owners allowing workers to unionize and bloated contracts negotiated that ultimately resulted in catastrophe. There are situations in which management does not have a choice as to whether or not their employees unionize. The playing field is not level, and our government has made it so with laws and regulations that favor unions. |
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 8:04:23 GMT -5
And there you go. Mismanagement along the way that led to the ultimate demise. Owners allowing workers to unionize and bloated contracts negotiated that ultimately resulted in catastrophe. There are situations in which management does not have a choice as to whether or not their employees unionize. The playing field is not level, and our government has made it so with laws and regulations that favor unions. Agreed. Comes right back to what I have been saying. Mismanagement on all levels. I will not willingly pay any more tax or support any increase in user fees unless the money is going towards what it is supposed to be. In the case of the PGC and/or our state govt, the pension issue has to be corrected first. |
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Post by Dutch on May 23, 2016 8:15:57 GMT -5
My daughter now has a job in mental health, unionized. AFSCME
Should be interesting to see how this goes.
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Post by davet on May 23, 2016 13:33:01 GMT -5
I believe PGC testified to the state that more than 60% of their budget is personnel costs and that pension and benefit obligations are the greatest burden. This "discussion" came up before because I have a spreadsheet on it. The last published PGC budget was for 2013-14 and it shows that total personnel cost was $64,711,630 and this represented 62% of that years total expenditures. OTOH when comparing that to the budget of 1997-98 (or 16 years prior) personnel cost were $40,462,000 or 70% of that years budget. In addition, the increase in personnel cost on an average annual basis would be 6% per year. Which frankly is well within any reasonable percentage of either a Government, or a for profit business over such a time period. So that argument is really a moot point. School tax is a "user fee". I ain't a "user" and never have been, but I sure have been paying the fee for the last 35 years since I bought land in PA. Property taxes are a "burden" of the property. No matter who owns said property. Be it an individual, corporation, trust, LLC, or non-profit entity. The property will always be subject to property taxes unless there is a specific exemption provided to a specific type of owner. Agreed. Comes right back to what I have been saying. Mismanagement on all levels. I will not willingly pay any more tax or support any increase in user fees unless the money is going towards what it is supposed to be. In the case of the PGC and/or our state govt, the pension issue has to be corrected first. The PGC is it's own separate fund. It pays for it's "share" of pension obligations based upon the actuarial calculation of the age and service years of the employees who worked for the PGC. Without you knowing the specific numbers from the actuary, you are doing nothing more than a wild SWAG at what you think may be a huge PGC burden. OTOH, it may, for the PGC be a moderate on, or they may in fact be paid up to date. You nor I don't know any of that. |
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 14:14:23 GMT -5
In addition, the increase in personnel cost on an average annual basis would be 6% per year. Which frankly is well within any reasonable percentage of either a Government, or a for profit business over such a time period. So that argument is really a moot point. Are you saying that 6% growth is reasonable or 60-70% of expenditures going towards personnel costs is reasonable? Actually PGC has testified that personnel costs are a huge burden on the agency. |
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Post by dennyf on May 23, 2016 14:50:17 GMT -5
Easy solution, Gene: Never buy another hunting license, regardless of whether or not the cost goes up. There, no more worries about something in which you're no longer "invested" in.
See how easy these things are to surmount, when you're a pragmatist like I am? popcorn
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Post by ridgecommander on May 23, 2016 15:37:28 GMT -5
Easy solution, Gene: Never buy another hunting license, regardless of whether or not the cost goes up. There, no more worries about something in which you're no longer "invested" in. Nah. Even with a license increase I will continue to buy one. I am just free to oppose any increase until the broken pension system is fixed and I will continue to urge by reps to fix the system for all state agencies and employees. Past, present, and future. |
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Post by Dutch on May 23, 2016 16:35:46 GMT -5
and the increase in fares ie/ tolls was paid by whom pray tell? The cost of doing business is what it is... spmeone has to pay for it. Did anyone suggest that the turnpike lower expenses to cover the $500 M hit? It was a tax hike for those in the southern tier, a "hidden" tax hike. |
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Post by Dutch on May 23, 2016 16:38:04 GMT -5
Our school district, at one time, when I was looking at things, generally had personnel costs between 65-70%.
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Post by davet on May 23, 2016 16:50:13 GMT -5
Are you saying that 6% growth is reasonable or 60-70% of expenditures going towards personnel costs is reasonable? Actually PGC has testified that personnel costs are a huge burden on the agency. Well......seeing that from the PGC's Facebook page....there Mission Statement: "MISSION: To manage Pennsylvania's wild birds and mammals and their habitat for current and future generations." Tell me....how is any agency suppose to do this without manpower? |
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Post by timberdoodle on May 23, 2016 16:51:25 GMT -5
and the increase in fares ie/ tolls was paid by whom pray tell? The cost of doing business is what it is... spmeone has to pay for it. Did anyone suggest that the turnpike lower expenses to cover the $500 M hit? It was a tax hike for those in the southern tier, a "hidden" tax hike. only for those who use the TPKE... IT IS A USER FEE.... I only pay the tolls when I use the Pike...and the last time was about 7- 8 years ago going to a habitat project on Frances Walter Dam.. I have to drive two hours to get to the turnpike.. so rarely use it.
Just got in from a trip to Rochester NY some friends, an Old Order Mennonite family had a hospital appointment, and they only use horse & buggy...I gave them a ride up and back and paid no taxes...or user fees but did go over the NY Thruway while on an overpass...No charge! 
Took the husband up last summer to visit his wife who was in the hospital at the time...again No charge, user fees, taxes, never got any bills from NY or nothin. See how that works?
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Post by dennyf on May 23, 2016 17:16:11 GMT -5
So, what is the national average on employee "overhead" costs for businesses?
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