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Post by davet on May 21, 2016 11:42:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I have more than a few. I had several email's with them that began with "let us look into this" and ended with "it appears to be a member\club dispute". But they never ask me any other questions on any data they obtained. Now, I'm the first one to tell you there are always two sides to every story.....but when I did fraud audits I always got the "story" but I always got the "paper trail" or what the attorneys call "evidence". Now, up front I stated the written documents that I had and if they wanted them just ask. They never ask. I'm very certain it came down to a money issue. 200 NRA members vs. one disabled guy.
Again, those who are disabled have no "pull". They have to "lobby", nor leverage. Most are lower income and most do not have the energy to launch any type of effort to accomplish this type of effort. I know that I don't have such energies. What energies I do have I devote to my family or my hobbies. Life is to short. I think most who are disabled think along those lines. I know that I don't have the energy to deal with a bunch of ass-hats political people who already know the voting block is small anyway.
So I no longer belong. Besides....whats one little disabled guy mean to them anyway?
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Post by 3212 on May 21, 2016 14:23:23 GMT -5
The Sunday hunting issue reminds me of a story(again).When I was about 11 or 12 and an avid fisherman,we visited some plain sect farmer friends on a Sunday.I went down to their pond with their son to see the bluegills.They were well fed fat ones.The rods were in a nearby shed.I asked about fishing and he said "Not on Sunday".After we went home I grabbed my rod and settled for some sucker fishing in a meadow stream.Sunday fishing was legal.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 18:26:46 GMT -5
Yeah, I have more than a few. I had several email's with them that began with "let us look into this" and ended with "it appears to be a member\club dispute". But they never ask me any other questions on any data they obtained. Now, I'm the first one to tell you there are always two sides to every story.....but when I did fraud audits I always got the "story" but I always got the "paper trail" or what the attorneys call "evidence". Now, up front I stated the written documents that I had and if they wanted them just ask. They never ask. I'm very certain it came down to a money issue. 200 NRA members vs. one disabled guy. Again, those who are disabled have no "pull". They have to "lobby", nor leverage. Most are lower income and most do not have the energy to launch any type of effort to accomplish this type of effort. I know that I don't have such energies. What energies I do have I devote to my family or my hobbies. Life is to short. I think most who are disabled think along those lines. I know that I don't have the energy to deal with a bunch of ass-hats political people who already know the voting block is small anyway. So I no longer belong. Besides....whats one little disabled guy mean to them anyway? If they through you out because you are disabled I wouldn't want to be a part of that club anyhow. Did you have some personal property that you didn't get back? Other then that I would tell them to pound sand and a lot of it.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 18:33:23 GMT -5
Just read my Senators recap and it looks like the Humane society was there to speak out against SH.
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Post by dennyf on May 21, 2016 20:00:25 GMT -5
Which Senator (or Senators) expressed the opinion that "we" can have a license increase, or "we" can have more Sunday hunting - but not both?
Is there some restriction that I am not aware of, which precludes moving forward on more than one long over due redress of stupidity, at the same time?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 5:56:11 GMT -5
I am confused, Dennis. Perhaps someone can explain what one has to do with the other.
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Post by Dutch on May 22, 2016 5:58:16 GMT -5
Just read my Senators recap and it looks like the Humane society was there to speak out against SH. Humane Society was invited, but did not show. They did provide written testimony tho.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 6:19:52 GMT -5
What? The Humane Society is not in favor of additional hunting opportunities? Huh? ??
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 8:38:46 GMT -5
Nothing at all and that illustrates the idiocy.
Or more to the point, illustrates the attitude of those in the position of possibly granting something from a position of absolute power over those of us "below them".
Apparently elected officials (and the bureaucrats they like to enable), seldom feel like giving away any of the power they have reserved for themselves? Especially when the need for something is fairly obvious to most others.
On the face of it, a hunting license increase after 17 years of NO increases, would seem to be long overdue. Same with additional SH, in a state with strong hunting traditions like PA, that is now surrounded by states that long ago did away with their own SH bans.
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Post by bawanajim on May 22, 2016 9:25:11 GMT -5
The whole issue of a licence increase is not as cut and dried as it sounds, until the pension mess is fixed, a licence increase is just like putting a band aid on lung cancer. The customer base is shrinking and too large an increase could prove fatal just the same, yet to small of an increase will not even cover the added losses in hunters attrition. I would look at other sources to increase income, timber sales, mining and increased leasing for mineral extraction.Cutting expenses is how other business work through bad times. Simple things like not buying those stupid pink envelopes to sell doe licences.
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Post by Dutch on May 22, 2016 9:38:37 GMT -5
I think 29% of the PGC budget comes from gas and minerals already.
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 9:59:10 GMT -5
Timber, mineral, gas and other sources of SGL revenue are at the mercy of market factors. Gas extraction in PA has slowed considerably; Timber rises and falls with the economy; The Feds are doing all they can to kill the coal industry. So much for squeezing more out of those sources. That is a very short-sighted view to take. Actually, it indicates a total lack of knowledge on the issue, to even bring it up as an "excuse" to oppose a license increase. There is always a slight fall-off in license sales following an increase. It generally rebounds within a short period of time, as those who really want to hunt, come back in again. Nothing having to do with salaries and benefits packages of employees, is under the control of PGC. They are letting positions go unfilled as retirements occur; Cancelled another WCO class, even though WCO retirements will leave them even more shorthanded than they already are now; Halted most "normal" seasonal hires in forestry, etc. What else can they do, that they are not already doing, to cut expenses? 17 years without an increase in the general license fee, is just plain nuts. Name one other government entity that has not raised its fees in the past 17 years. State, local and federal agencies regularly raise "participation" fees as-needed, to fund their operations. Fees for licenses, permits, inspections and for other costs associated with any government agency, have all increased over the past 17 years.
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Post by Dutch on May 22, 2016 10:00:57 GMT -5
Maybe we should pay the members of the legislature what they made 17 years ago.
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Post by bawanajim on May 22, 2016 10:43:26 GMT -5
I never said I didn't think an increase was needed! I don't believe that the huge increases proposed are anything but ridicules. And it will lead to a huge revenue loss instead of the intended windfall. Lets not forget a few of the increases that the hallowed PGC has received via the massive increases in the number of antler less licences, bear licences and the whole elk sham. Trees are a renewable resource, cut them down, the animals would love them for it.
Their financial debacle did not just happen, it was created by inactivity to search out solutions, its away's easier to just "charge more" that does not work for business and it won't work here.
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 11:46:43 GMT -5
"Huge increases in antlerless sales"??
Miss the part where the current BOC keeps cutting them, year after year? They have never been a large revenue source, never will be. I don't think they have ever brought in much more than $2.5 million in any license year and that would've peaked during the initial phases of HR, when roughly 500,000 doe tags were issued?
When the last license increase was granted and went into effect in 1999, the legislators that finally granted it were told then, that the increase from $12.50 to $20 would "last" about six years before additional revenue would be needed. So that means the PGC has gone well over ten years without any increase in that fee.
All that "saved the day" financially, was the unanticipated advent of Marcellus Shale exploration which came about several years after the time frame when they should've received another increase in license fees. Gas leases helped immensely when they came about, those days are gone now.
Cutting trees without considering market factors and some viable return to the agency, is not good management of the resource. Would you sell timber worth a thousand dollars in today's market, if that timber might be worth several times that much a year or two down the road, if market conditions improved? Mature timber typically isn't "going anywhere" in the meantime.
Right now ash is probably flooding the market, due to the current epidemic of loss due to borers. We have hundreds of mature ash on our club property that needs cut and no one is even interested in it.
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Post by bawanajim on May 22, 2016 12:16:37 GMT -5
If the bank were foreclosing it would be a smart move to harvest your timber, assets are just that assets. And since the vast majority of game lands are forest land, that would make trees one of your most valuable assets, only the bureaucracy of the PGC could turn that into a loosing proposition. Some ones blowing smoke up your butt on the ash, there is a great demand and plenty of guys are cutting it while they can.
And if you that chump change of 2.5 million laying around, send it this way, I'll put it to use.
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Post by Dutch on May 22, 2016 13:14:30 GMT -5
IF PGC and DCNR flooded the market with timber, private landowners would not be able to sell their timber due to a glut.
BTW Denny, PGC sells timber whatever the market conditions, same as DCNR.
PGC sells for habitat improvement and to get their lands on a better rotation.
DCNR sells to maintain a rotation.
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Post by bawanajim on May 22, 2016 14:45:38 GMT -5
DNCR is only allowed to cut 1% per year, they will never flood the market, its not like the oil and gas industries that are capable of over production.
The other thing is, most stands of timber have a % of poor quality timber that should be removed to let sunlight and regeneration begin to restore the under growth, we have cut several properties in this manor, selling the logs to pallet mills or as tri axle loads of firewood, and at a decant profit.
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 15:06:15 GMT -5
They can only sell it, when they actually get bids to buy it. Try to keep up, will ya?
In down times, few are interested in harvesting timber in rough, steep terrain. Especially when they have to "jump thru" all the hoops required to take timber on SGLs.
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Post by dennyf on May 22, 2016 15:15:15 GMT -5
Maybe out your way? While I haven't personally gotten involved in it (yet), some of our members that know/deal with loggers and one sawmill, were told IF we cut our dead/dying ash into logs and pile them out in a loading area, they'll send a truck and buy the logs. Other than members interested in fire wood, no one is knocking down our doors for ash thus far.
A PGC supervisor told me back in February, that most if not all of the ash on SGLs in the SE region, are dead or dying.
Same thing on our 154 acres, so I'm told. Ain't had time to go look much, other than last weekend when I helped cut one up/move a big'un that had toppled in the winds onto a field archery course. Dozens of others in that area that are dead.
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Post by ridgecommander on May 22, 2016 15:31:58 GMT -5
The whole issue of a licence increase is not as cut and dried as it sounds, until the pension mess is fixed, a licence increase is just like putting a band aid on lung cancer. Yep. We have not had a state sales tax increase in a long time. Some are saying it is way overdue. I am not one of them. We should not increase fees or taxes just because it is overdue when the problem really lies with the inability of the state to run a fiscally sound govt. Which Senator (or Senators) expressed the opinion that "we" can have a license increase, or "we" can have more Sunday hunting - but not both? Is there some restriction that I am not aware of, which precludes moving forward on more than one long over due redress of stupidity, at the same time? Does Denny support a sales tax increase since we have not had one in awhile and it is over due?
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Post by Dutch on May 22, 2016 16:44:02 GMT -5
Here's the problem Ridge, it is not the fault of the PGC the legislature can't fix the pension issue. So, we pay.
The GOP swept it under the rug when they controlled everything, now they want to point fingers when we get a Dem gov.
Hypocrites.
That said, absent a pension problem, I bet the PGC would still need a raise?
Longest time between raises in history, I believe.
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Post by ridgecommander on May 22, 2016 16:50:31 GMT -5
Here's the problem Ridge, it is not the fault of the PGC the legislature can't fix the pension issue. So, we pay. It isn't the fault of most of those within the public sector, either. Mismanagement of funds, mismanagement by our elected officials, and greed by public unions leaders is the root of the problem. All are in the same boat, regardless if they are being paid by tax dollars or license fees. The fact that a great proportion of any license increase will go directly to unsustainable benefits. I cannot and will not support any increase until the issue is corrected and the longterm viability is taken care of. The chickens have come home to roost and will continue to do so until this country goes bankrupt. And I would support it if the most of the money was going to programs that a game agency should be spending money on. Sure. But it has to be justified more than we have to pay for unsustainable pensions and benefits that are bankrupting the agency and the state. Sticking a finger in a leaking dam only lasts so long.
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Post by davet on May 22, 2016 17:07:26 GMT -5
The entire fault.....meaning THE WHOLE ENCHILADA OF THE PENSION CRISIS, can be laid at the doorstep of Pennsylvania's elected Legislature, and past Governor's. They voted for increased pensions (Ummmm......50% increase for Legislators and Governors) plus, when the stock market went up and up and up.....they chose to NOT make even the minimum required payments but instead to fund silly programs. Yet now the chickens have come home to roost.
The pension obligation has always been there. It's the Harrisburg idiots that have ignored it and choose to buy the Ford Mustang GT and burn rubber!! But then UH OH....now the BIG insurance bill just came...and they are running into the basement saying if anyone calls.....I'm not here.
Bunch of crybabies. Bunch of idiots.
But wait.....let me tell you how I really feel.........
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Post by bawanajim on May 22, 2016 17:45:49 GMT -5
Didn't that Romney guy mention something about this eight years or so ago?
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