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Post by dougell on Jan 7, 2019 17:56:09 GMT -5
This isn't meant as a crossbow bash because I support their inclusion.However,I keep seeing adds for the new Tenpoint with an advertised speed of 470 feet/sec.They also describe it as their most compact crossbow.I remember being reluctant when they were first included because I knew the technology was in it's infancy and the crossbow man. were holding back.I'm not against their use but I also believe a line should be drawn.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 7, 2019 18:12:46 GMT -5
Cat is outta the bag, imo
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Post by cspot on Jan 7, 2019 19:00:16 GMT -5
Just wait until you see the price tag. I am sure it will be a shock as well. Scorpyd has had speeds up around that for a while now.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 7, 2019 19:07:15 GMT -5
Just wait until you see the price tag. I am sure it will be a shock as well. Scorpyd has had speeds up around that for a while now. Yep, but in time, those speeds will become the norm, at reasonable prices
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Post by bushmaster on Jan 7, 2019 21:01:14 GMT -5
470 fps? That's pretty fast. I"ll stick with my 188 out of the longbow.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 8:31:13 GMT -5
Hunting weight arrow will come in around 450fps, which has been around for some time now.
I do agree that chasing speed is a bad thing and at some point it will not be archery. I also feel that only so much speed can be achieved through conventional crossbow design. Much like the vertical market, the crossbow industry will hit a speed wall as only so much energy can be stored in drawn limbs in a package that remains huntable and reliable.
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 9:03:30 GMT -5
Again,nothing against crossbows or those who use them.However,even 400 fps with a compact,narrow,scoped crossbow isn't even close to archery,not even close.About two months ago,I was at Jim's sport center in Clearfield.They sell bows and crossbows,including tenpoint.I was handling one of tenpoint's new reverse draw crossbow.I forget the model but it was the last one they had at $999.They were completely sold out of the one that cost $1599.People will and are buying the high end crossbows.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 9:17:14 GMT -5
Again,nothing against crossbows or those who use them.However,even 400 fps with a compact,narrow,scoped crossbow isn't even close to archery,not even close.. Your opinion, but success rates show they are close to compounds. Your opinion and mine differ on what is archery. Just as some traditional shooters don't consider you a archery hunter. The real disparity is between traditional gear and compound/crossbows. With that said, if speeds around 500 fps and above become commonplace in hunters hands, I will get concerned as I believe crossbows will then distance themselves from compounds. Just an FYI. I am quite involved in the industry and so some writing on crossbows for a nationally circulated magazine. The typical crossbow hunter hunts with a crossbow that costs $600 or less and shoots around 350fps. That accounts for over 80% of the market.
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470 fps.
Jan 8, 2019 10:53:53 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 10:53:53 GMT -5
470 fps? That's pretty fast. I"ll stick with my 188 out of the longbow. Damn right...and it kills 'em just as dead. and I like the entertainment a longbow provides at the annual proficiency test for my township's archery deer program. "Wow, nice bow, I never see anyone hunting with those." And then the inevitable excuse is offered up..."I'd give it a try, but I don't even have the time to practice using a compound, that's why i hunt with this (crossbow)."😅
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 12:22:31 GMT -5
Hunting weight arrow will come in around 450fps, which has been around for some time now. I do agree that chasing speed is a bad thing and at some point it will not be archery. I also feel that only so much speed can be achieved through conventional crossbow design. Much like the vertical market, the crossbow industry will hit a speed wall as only so much energy can be stored in drawn limbs in a package that remains huntable and reliable. I have nothing against crossbows,consider them a legitimate weapon but I don't consider them to be archery.They are what they are,crossbows.I base that on several years of experience,not just simply an opinion.Once they hit 400 fps,they become an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 13:05:35 GMT -5
Hunting weight arrow will come in around 450fps, which has been around for some time now. I do agree that chasing speed is a bad thing and at some point it will not be archery. I also feel that only so much speed can be achieved through conventional crossbow design. Much like the vertical market, the crossbow industry will hit a speed wall as only so much energy can be stored in drawn limbs in a package that remains huntable and reliable. I have nothing against crossbows,consider them a legitimate weapon but I don't consider them to be archery.They are what they are,crossbows.I base that on several years of experience,not just simply an opinion. And many don't consider you an archery hunter. I do and I consider those that hunt with crossbows archery hunters. Not sure why you have to keep reiterating that you feel crossbows are not archery in every conversation. And many will say that a tricked out Hoyt is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a Black Widow recurve and a old open sighted Winchester 32/20 is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a scoped Browning Xbolt in 300WSM. Yet the Black Widow and the Hoyt are grouped in the same season and the Winchester and the Browning are grouped in the same season. You claim to be over it but your elitism continues to shine through.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 8, 2019 13:17:48 GMT -5
Just saw some 400 fps crossbows advertised, $6-700.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 13:19:58 GMT -5
Just saw some 400 fps crossbows advertised, $6-700. Yep. They exist for sure. Was just relaying industry data. 80% of crossbow users are shooting cheaper bows that are on the lower end of the speed spectrum.
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Post by davet on Jan 8, 2019 13:21:10 GMT -5
My trusty 'ol 318fps Horton (bankrupt Horton) seems to get the job done.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 8, 2019 13:25:17 GMT -5
Just saw some 400 fps crossbows advertised, $6-700. Yep. They exist for sure. Was just relaying industry data. 80% of crossbow users are shooting cheaper bows that are on the lower end of the speed spectrum. I would agree. Not all if us have to have the latest and greatest every year. When mine breaks, I'll buy a new one. I was at a bowshop a year ago. Ravin bows? $1800? WTH!
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 13:47:44 GMT -5
Yep. They exist for sure. Was just relaying industry data. 80% of crossbow users are shooting cheaper bows that are on the lower end of the speed spectrum. I would agree. Not all if us have to have the latest and greatest every year. When mine breaks, I'll buy a new one. I was at a bowshop a year ago. Ravin bows? $1800? WTH! Archery pro shops are hurting in many crossbow legal states cause crossbow hunters generally buy a crossbow package and do not upgrade till something breaks or it needs major maintenance. Vertical archery hunters tend to upgrade more often and continually play with different accessories. Two new crossbows will debut at the ATA in 2 days with prices tags over $2000.
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 14:48:57 GMT -5
I have nothing against crossbows,consider them a legitimate weapon but I don't consider them to be archery.They are what they are,crossbows.I base that on several years of experience,not just simply an opinion. And many don't consider you an archery hunter. I do and I consider those that hunt with crossbows archery hunters. Not sure why you have to keep reiterating that you feel crossbows are not archery in every conversation. And many will say that a tricked out Hoyt is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a Black Widow recurve and a old open sighted Winchester 32/20 is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a scoped Browning Xbolt in 300WSM. Yet the Black Widow and the Hoyt are grouped in the same season and the Winchester and the Browning are grouped in the same season. You claim to be over it but your elitism continues to shine through. No elitism here.I fully support crossbow inclusion.I'm not a bowhunter.I'm simply a hunter.I just don't consider a shouldered,scoped weapon archery equip.I don't think any less of anyone who uses a crossbow.I don't think any less of a guy who shoots deer at 1600 yards with a rifle.Archery season is a close range sport and these new crossbows are changing the nature of the season and it's going to keep changing.You've been saying for quite a while that crossbows were peaked out and that simply isn't the case.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 8, 2019 14:52:53 GMT -5
And many don't consider you an archery hunter. I do and I consider those that hunt with crossbows archery hunters. Not sure why you have to keep reiterating that you feel crossbows are not archery in every conversation. And many will say that a tricked out Hoyt is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a Black Widow recurve and a old open sighted Winchester 32/20 is an entirely different weapon with an entirely different range of effectiveness than a scoped Browning Xbolt in 300WSM. Yet the Black Widow and the Hoyt are grouped in the same season and the Winchester and the Browning are grouped in the same season. You claim to be over it but your elitism continues to shine through. No elitism here.I fully support crossbow inclusion.I'm not a bowhunter.I'm simply a hunter.I just don't consider a shouldered,scoped weapon archery equip.I don't think any less of anyone who uses a crossbow.I don't think any less of a guy who shoots deer at 1600 yards with a rifle.Archery season is a close range sport and these new crossbows are changing the nature of the season and it's going to keep changing.You've been saying for quite a while that crossbows were peaked out and that simply isn't the case. And here is another thing, we now have turkey guns and loads that will kill at 60-70 yds. When the first gobbler season came in, none of that stuff existed, yet no one mentions how it has evolved
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 15:01:22 GMT -5
Spend $1,500 to $2,000 on a mass produced crossbow or a mass produced compound bow, & two years later their worth less than half of what you spent. Spend $1,500 to $2,000 on a on a custom made, one of a kind longbow or a custom made one of a kind recurve bow, & two years later it will still be worth what you paid for it, and possibly more.
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 15:18:29 GMT -5
No elitism here.I fully support crossbow inclusion.I'm not a bowhunter.I'm simply a hunter.I just don't consider a shouldered,scoped weapon archery equip.I don't think any less of anyone who uses a crossbow.I don't think any less of a guy who shoots deer at 1600 yards with a rifle.Archery season is a close range sport and these new crossbows are changing the nature of the season and it's going to keep changing.You've been saying for quite a while that crossbows were peaked out and that simply isn't the case. And here is another thing, we now have turkey guns and loads that will kill at 60-70 yds. When the first gobbler season came in, none of that stuff existed, yet no one mentions how it has evolved Yep,you have a fairly high percentage of guys using specialized scoped shotguns that look like they came out of a science fiction movie.I just don't get it.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 15:19:09 GMT -5
You've been saying for quite a while that crossbows were peaked out and that simply isn't the case. Never said that. I said that they will peak out like vertical bows have. Now, if crossbows start using springs, pistons, or compressed air to power the arrows, they will be able to achieve substantial speed increases but they will no longer be bows that get their energy from drawn limbs.
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 15:29:29 GMT -5
You certainly tried to sugar coat it Gene and insinuated that we'd never see performance gains like this.Just a few years ago,crossbows were little to no advantage because they were clumbsy,heavy and loud.Every year those disadvantages go away.
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Post by dougell on Jan 8, 2019 15:37:50 GMT -5
OK,I'll stop.Gene,this was nothing more than a troll post to get you worked up lol.I could care less what anyone uses.You are predictable though.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 15:38:36 GMT -5
You certainly tried to sugar coat it Gene and insinuated that we'd never see performance gains like this.Just a few years ago,crossbows were little to no advantage because they were clumbsy,heavy and loud.Every year those disadvantages go away. Nope. Been very clear and honest about everything crossbow related. Never said we would never see crossbows shooting 450 or 500fps. I have said that most hunters do not hunt with bows that fast. I have also said that speed will self cap at some point, much like it has in the vertical world. Unless we move away from energy stored in limbs to assistance from pistons, compressed air, levers, and springs. And you are right, as technology increases, disadvantages are lessened and advantages are increased. That is why I am concerned about the recent marketing campaigns of certain crossbow manufacturers and the speed game being played by some of them. I have no problem being honest.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 8, 2019 15:38:56 GMT -5
OK,I'll stop.Gene,this was nothing more than a troll post to get you worked up lol.I could care less what anyone uses.You are predictable though. As are you..........
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