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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 10, 2019 15:55:09 GMT -5
The PGC could come up with a list of accepted crossbows, and if you get caught with one not on the list you get fined. No harder to enforce than the minimum caliber rule or the baitin law. Sure there will be those that will violate the rule, but that happenns with all the rules now. One can take a 400 fps crossbow and slow it down to 340 fps by just shooting a heavier arrow. Manufacturer specs are often not close to actual field performances once in hunters hands. Another example is example draw weights in crossbows. A Excalibur crossbow with a 275 draw weight actually shoots an arrow slower than a Scorpyd crossbow with a 150 pound draw weight. New York has limb width restrictions on crossbows. The limbs have to be a certain width uncocked. That regulation doesn't really affect anything other than eliminating certain crossbows from being able to be used. A certain legal crossbow can throw arrows above 400fps, and another not legal only throws them 340 fps. The only real way to effective regulate crossbows is a speed cap.
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Post by dougell on Jan 10, 2019 16:01:58 GMT -5
I pass on way more deer than I shoot.Sometimes I just don't want to shoot that deer.Most of the time,it's just an iffy shot and I see no reason to take the chance.Basically,I only take what I consider to be slam dunk shots with a bow.As a result I let a lot of deer walk but I rarely miss and I've never failed to recover a deer with a bow.A scoped weapon shooting over 400 yards would increase my effective range a great deal.I know that for a fact because I've seen my son at 9 and 10 years old drill deer with a crossbow that I wouldn't have shot at with a bow.In the end,it would make no difference how many deer I kill because I'll kill as many deer as I have tags for,if I choose to do so,regardless of the weapon.In reality,I don't give a rat's arse because I think we need more deer killed and there's less hunters doing the job every year.Still,this new technology is changing the very essence of what archery season is and why there's such a long season.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 10, 2019 16:09:30 GMT -5
.Basically,I only take what I consider to be slam dunk shots with a bow. Me too. I would hope others do as well. If slam dunk shots at 100 yards or beyond became the norm, the game has changed. Yes, folks are taking and killing animals at 100 yards and beyond with compounds these days as well. Certainly not the norm, though. Same with crossbows. The norm is far from 100 yards and beyond now. But maybe not in the future.
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470 fps.
Jan 10, 2019 16:24:08 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2019 16:24:08 GMT -5
And to think. Native Americans harvested deer by driving them off a cliff.
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Post by dougell on Jan 10, 2019 17:30:06 GMT -5
.Basically,I only take what I consider to be slam dunk shots with a bow. Me too. I would hope others do as well. If slam dunk shots at 100 yards or beyond became the norm, the game has changed. Yes, folks are taking and killing animals at 100 yards and beyond with compounds these days as well. Certainly not the norm, though. Same with crossbows. The norm is far from 100 yards and beyond now. But maybe not in the future. Others don't.Trust me,I have plenty of experience with that one.I doubt many are killing deer at 100 yards with crossbows but there's a lot being shot at 50-60 yards.
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Post by dennyf on Jan 10, 2019 19:09:57 GMT -5
I'm holding out for when they make Crosman Air Bows legal....
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 10, 2019 19:57:11 GMT -5
I'm holding out for when they make Crosman Air Bows legal.... They will, but in seasons where air rifles are legal. At least in Pa anyways.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 11, 2019 12:33:50 GMT -5
Me too. I would hope others do as well. If slam dunk shots at 100 yards or beyond became the norm, the game has changed. Yes, folks are taking and killing animals at 100 yards and beyond with compounds these days as well. Certainly not the norm, though. Same with crossbows. The norm is far from 100 yards and beyond now. But maybe not in the future. Others don't.Trust me,I have plenty of experience with that one.I doubt many are killing deer at 100 yards with crossbows but there's a lot being shot at 50-60 yards. There are also a lot being wounded at that distance
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Post by dougell on Jan 11, 2019 12:47:44 GMT -5
Of course there are.Way too many get wounded with just about every weapon.A bad shot can happen with anything.It's what you do after the shot that matters and the weapon doesn't control that.My two neighbors behind me both hunt with crossbows.The first night of archery season,I see lights in the field and went down to help them because they were obviously looking for a deer.It turns out they both shot nice bucks within minutes of each other.The first one dropped 50 yards into the woods.The second one was shot at about 35 yards.The deer ran for about 50 yards,stood there and walked away.When that happens,you wait because you obviously didn't get lungs.They went right after it and lost the very heavy blood trail after about 200 yards.I helped them search the next day and there wasn't a drop of blood after they jumped it from it's bed the night before.A week later it was found about a half mile away.That wasn't the crossbows fault.Three days later,he killed another one.
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470 fps.
Jan 22, 2019 12:19:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by twofortythree on Jan 22, 2019 12:19:31 GMT -5
Again,nothing against crossbows or those who use them.However,even 400 fps with a compact,narrow,scoped crossbow isn't even close to archery,not even close.. Your opinion, but success rates show they are close to compounds. Your opinion and mine differ on what is archery. Just as some traditional shooters don't consider you a archery hunter. The real disparity is between traditional gear and compound/crossbows. With that said, if speeds around 500 fps and above become commonplace in hunters hands, I will get concerned as I believe crossbows will then distance themselves from compounds. Just an FYI. I am quite involved in the industry and so some writing on crossbows for a nationally circulated magazine. The typical crossbow hunter hunts with a crossbow that costs $600 or less and shoots around 350fps. That accounts for over 80% of the market. Lifelong bowhunter here. 36 plus years. I own a crossbow. I hunt with a recurve some but mostly my compound. Ive killed on deer with a crossbow, my daughter loves shooting the crossbow mainly why i have it. Its cheap one rated at 370 fps. It is by far a way more of an advantage over any vertical bow in any hunting situation or target shooting situation. I can shoot it farther and way more accurate then anyone is going to shoot a vertical bow at 50 60 yards. I dont have to draw or hold with a crossbow. I got a yardage compensating scope out to 60. Crossbows are already more in line with guns then they are archery equipment. Not that many years ago I remember many punkin ball slingers out there that i would take a modern crossbow over and roundball flintlocks. Even some of the older rifles i would sooner had a modern crossbow. There really is no comparison between the crossbow and the vertical bow at all anymore. 500 fbs is the goal of the crossbow industry. Much like 300 fps was in the bow industry 20-25 years ago. More comparable to guns then compound anymore IMO
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Post by davet on Jan 22, 2019 16:10:07 GMT -5
I dunno where that study was done.... but I’ll take my Flintlock over a crossbow any day of the week. Yes....even in the rain.
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Post by dougell on Jan 22, 2019 17:18:37 GMT -5
I had to run my kid up to Erie this morning so we stopped at the Field and stream up there.They had the new fangled Tenpoint and the new Ravin sitting on the counter.The TP was $2500 and while compact,it was a little on the heavy side.The new Ravine was 2k and the size of a sub-machine gun.
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Post by whitefalcon on Jan 22, 2019 17:31:09 GMT -5
So do you climb up into your tree stand with it loaded? With bolt in or out? Can you dry fire a C.B.?
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Post by dougell on Jan 22, 2019 18:22:45 GMT -5
So do you climb up into your tree stand with it loaded? With bolt in or out? Can you dry fire a C.B.? You just take the bolt out.Most have an anti-dry fire mechanism.
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Post by cspot on Jan 22, 2019 19:07:22 GMT -5
So do you climb up into your tree stand with it loaded? With bolt in or out? Can you dry fire a C.B.? ' It depends. MOst crossbows have an anti-dryfire, but not all. I have an Excal that does not have one. I do not climb into a tree with it loaded. Most of the time it is cocked with the safety on. Sometimes I cock it when I get in the stand.
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Post by whitefalcon on Jan 22, 2019 19:13:20 GMT -5
Thanks! Don't own one, just wanted to know.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 23, 2019 9:31:28 GMT -5
Lifelong bowhunter here. 36 plus years. I own a crossbow. I hunt with a recurve some but mostly my compound. Ive killed on deer with a crossbow, my daughter loves shooting the crossbow mainly why i have it. Its cheap one rated at 370 fps. It is by far a way more of an advantage over any vertical bow in any hunting situation or target shooting situation. I can shoot it farther and way more accurate then anyone is going to shoot a vertical bow at 50 60 yards. I dont have to draw or hold with a crossbow. I got a yardage compensating scope out to 60. Crossbows are already more in line with guns then they are archery equipment. Not that many years ago I remember many punkin ball slingers out there that i would take a modern crossbow over and roundball flintlocks. Even some of the older rifles i would sooner had a modern crossbow. There really is no comparison between the crossbow and the vertical bow at all anymore. 500 fbs is the goal of the crossbow industry. Much like 300 fps was in the bow industry 20-25 years ago. What I said was that known success rates show about a 3-5% advantage when it comes to putting deer on the ground. I don't dispute that crossbows have distinct advantages over compounds. Never have. If speeds keep creeping up, the success rate will keep going up. Guns they are not, even at 500fps. The drop of a 400fps crossbow at 100 yards is still over 6 feet.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 23, 2019 9:40:42 GMT -5
So do you climb up into your tree stand with it loaded? With bolt in or out? Can you dry fire a C.B.? I climb and walk without an arrow in my crossbow. Some crossbows can be dry fired, but most also have a dry fire device to limit the string travel if it is fired without an arrow in place.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 23, 2019 12:39:53 GMT -5
Just a question, at what distance, roughly, does the KE of a bolt drop to the point it's not ethical to shoot at a deer?
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 23, 2019 13:59:30 GMT -5
Just a question, at what distance, roughly, does the KE of a bolt drop to the point it's not ethical to shoot at a deer? A long way out there, Dutch. Just as with compound bows. A compound bow shooting a bit over 320 fps still has more than double what many say is minimum KE for deer sized game at 100 yards. I bet many modern compounds and crossbows have enough KE until they hit the dirt. They are heavy projectiles compared to rifle bullets so they carry their momentum well through their flight. Momentum is important, just as KE is. Arrows cut so they need just enough energy to slice through tissue, unlike bullets that must be pushed through tissue, which requires more energy. KE usually favors speed, while momentum favors weight. As a disclaimer, just cause an arrow has enough KE at 200 yards to humanely kill, does that mean that a 200 yard shot is ethical with archery gear. Ethics is a personal thing. Even with the fastest bow, I would consider anything beyond 60 yards in hunting situations is asking for trouble with archery gear. Others may feel differently.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 23, 2019 14:20:33 GMT -5
I know western archers shoot elk at 70 yds or so, with compounds, just didn't know the effective rage of a bolt
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 23, 2019 14:37:21 GMT -5
I know western archers shoot elk at 70 yds or so, with compounds, just didn't know the effective rage of a bolt From a purely KE standpoint, both are a ways out there.
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Post by GlennD on Jan 24, 2019 13:51:46 GMT -5
Well, I just got done reading Mutt's post from January 9 (Slow reader).. Everything has been covered here.. and mostly civil. It's a good thing! One thought I had was evaluating success rates between compound archers and crossbows has also been heavily impacted by advancements in technology. I too am old enough to remember traditional guys saying compounds were not real archery and gave the archer an unfair advantage. But, those early compounds were not the same animal as what we are seeing today. I think even with a compound in the early days, a feller or gal, had to spend some time practicing. I don't see the same dedication to the sport these days to shoot a modern compound. Fact is, I don't think there is a hill of beans difference in a modern compound and a crossbow as far as deer killing capability within 40 yards. I got lucky a couple years back with a reversal of physical disability from Cholesterol drugs by refusing to take them. During the period of time I took those drugs, I was a cripple. I could not shoot my traditional nor compound bows. Caved in a bought a TenPoint Titan. I hated it. Anyhow, after stopping the drugs, my physical strength and muscle/joint problems went away. I could go back and shoot my vertical bows. The point I am trying to make, is like many of us I have been through it all. Compounds and crossbows ain't much different in effectiveness at normal deer archery ranges, and neither a crossbow nor a modern compound require much practice to be proficient. I can pick up my compound after letting it sit for a couple months and shoot 3 inch groups at 20 yards. Can't do that with my old Bear Kodiak. So, going back to comparing success rates between compounds and crossbows, in my opinion, there's not the disparity in user ability that existed in earlier days. In early days of archery hunting, lots of arrows were released by not so skilled weekend archers. Today's bowhunters are a much more well oiled killing machine.
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Post by dougell on Jan 24, 2019 14:57:57 GMT -5
Just a question, at what distance, roughly, does the KE of a bolt drop to the point it's not ethical to shoot at a deer? It doesn't take much.When my son was 11 he shot completely through a buck at #42 with a 22" draw.I don't know the speed but it was slow and I don't know the weight of the arrow but it was an ics 500 so it was light.You can completely penetrate a deer a long ways out there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2019 14:58:33 GMT -5
I know western archers shoot elk at 70 yds or so, with compounds, just didn't know the effective rage of a bolt On my first big game hunt, a caribou hunt in Quebec in 1991, I hunted with a bunch of guys and two women. Some of the guys were from the Horton Crossbow company and were using the company's product. Two guys were from Michigan (one, the artist Charles Denault) and were using compound bows. The rest of us used rifles. We all got caribou. Chuck Denault shot his at a distance of (according to him) over 80 yards. Denault maintained that he practiced frequently at that kind of range. It would have been difficult to get within 40 yards of a caribou in that very open territory. I didn't see much diffrence between caribou killed with any of the above weapons. They were all dead. When I hunted elk in Alberta I practiced at long distances. The one elk I took with a bow (compound) was with a shot of 25 yards. I actually missed a moose on that trip, but that is another story.
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