To use or Not to use?

[Deleted]

Please advise...

Last year I used a doe in estrus scent for the 1st time. I had a 4pt come within 10 feet of my blind, snorting up a storm.

I bought an aerosol can "Buck Bomb" doe in estrus this year.

I just went to their website and see it's harvested on deer farms in PA mostly. Should I take it back and never use the stuff again given all of this CWD news?

Is using the stuff part of, or potentially creating, the problem?

[GlennD]

Good question! I just bought my first can of it the other day.

[flounder]

Nov 20, 2012 15:44:14 GMT -5 @cl3 said:

Please advise...

Last year I used a doe in estrus scent for the 1st time. I had a 4pt come within 10 feet of my blind, snorting up a storm.

I bought an aerosol can "Buck Bomb" doe in estrus this year.

I just went to their website and see it's harvested on deer farms in PA mostly. Should I take it back and never use the stuff again given all of this CWD news?

Is using the stuff part of, or potentially creating, the problem?

very well could be.


> spraying 100% aerosol can Buck Bomb & doe in estrus this year ?


The Buck Bomb Doe In Estrus scent is the most effective way to get to get Estrus scent out to the big boys from a long distance. The Buck Bomb Doe In Estrus is 5-ounces of pure, fresh doe in heat urine.


buckbomb.com/catalog/product/buck_bomb_doe_in_estrus



science is now showing that the aerosol route of transmission of TSE is very efficient.


urine has also become a valid concern as well for TSE.



please see ;




PO-031: Aerosol transmission of chronic wasting disease to white-tailed deer

Nathaniel Denkers,1 Jeanette Hayes-Klug,1 Kelly Anderson,1 Sally Dahmes,2 David Osborn,3 Karl Miller,3 Robert Warren,3 Candace Mathiason,1 Edward Hoover1

1Colorado State University; Fort Collins, CO USA; 2WASCO Inc.; Monroe, GA USA; 3Warnell School of Forestry and Natural Resources, University of Georgia; Athens, GA USA

Purpose. A signature feature of chronic wasting disease (CWD) is its efficient lateral transmission in nature, almost surely by mucosal exposure. Our previous studies employing Tg(cerPrP) mice determined that CWD can be transmitted to a susceptible host by aerosol exposure, a route with relatively little investigation. The present study was designed to determine whether CWD is transmissible by aerosol to a native cervid host, white-tailed deer.
Materials and Methods. Nine white-tailed deer were exposed to two (2) aerosol doses of a 5% w/v CWD+ (n = 6) or CWD- (n = 3) brain homogenate, delivered via the nasal passages using a customized aerosol apparatus. At 3-month intervals post inoculation (mpi), tonsil and recto-anal mucosa-associated lymphoid tissue (RAMALT) biopsies were collected and assayed for CWD infection by protein misfolding cyclic amplification (PMCA), western blotting (WB), and immunohistochemistry (IHC).

Results. At 3 mpi and 6 mpi, tonsil and RAMALT biopsies were collected from 5 of the 6 CWD + aerosol-exposed deer. Three of the 5 (60%) tested positive for CWD by PMCA but not IHC or western blot analysis at 3 mpi. By 6 mpi, 5 of 5 (100%) were tonsil and/or RAMALT biopsy positive by at least two of the three assays. Biopsies were collected from all CWD+ aerosol-exposed deer at 9 mpi, with 6 of 6 (100%) tonsil and/ or RAMALT positive by western blot or IHC. At 10 mpi 3 of the 6 prion-exposed deer have developed early clinical signs of CWD infection (hyperphagia, polydypsia, wide leg stance and head/neck dorsi-flexion). All sham-inoculated deer are showing no clinical signs and have remained CWD negative as assessed by all three assays. Interestingly, the prion dose delivered to the deer by aerosol-exposure is estimated to be 20-fold lower than the historical oral dose that has resulted in detectable CWD infection at 6 or 12 mpi.

Conclusions. This study documents the first aerosol transmission of CWD in deer. These results further infer that aerosolized prions facilitate CWD transmission with greater efficiency than does oral exposure to a larger prion dose. Thus exposure via the respiratory mucosa may be significant in the facile spread of CWD in deer and perhaps in prion transmission overall.

www.landesbioscience.com/journals/prion/03-Prion6-2-Transmission-and-strains.pdf



PO-073: Multiple routes of prion transepithelial transport in the nasal cavity following inhalation

Anthony Kincaid, Shawn Feilmann, Melissa Clouse, Albert Lorenzo, Jason Bartz Creighton University; Omaha, NE USA

Introduction. Inhalation of either prion-infected brain homogenate or aerosolized prions has been shown to cause disease, and in the case of inhalation of infected brain homogenate, the nasal route of infection has been shown to be 10–100 times more efficient than the oral route. The cell types involved in the in vivo transport of prions across the nasal cavity epithelium have not been determined. M cells in the follicular associated epithelium have been shown to mediate transcellular transport of prions in vitro and in the gut of experimentally infected mice. We tested the hypothesis that M-cell mediated transport was responsible for prion entry across nasal cavity epithelium following inhalation.

Materials and Methods. Hamsters were inoculated extranasally with 50 or 100ul of infected (n = 31) or mock-infected (n = 13) brain homogenate. Control animals were inoculated with buffer (n = 4) or were untreated (n = 5). Following survival periods ranging from 15 to 180 min, animals were perfused, skulls were decalcified and nasal cavities were embedded in paraffin. Tissue sections were cut and processed immunohistochemically for glial fibrillary acidic protein to identify brain homogenate, or for the disease-associated form of the prion protein. Tissue sections not further than 112 um apart through the entire extent of the nasal cavity were analyzed using light microscopy; photomicrographs were obtained wherever inoculum was observed on the surface of, within, or deep to the nasal mucosa for each animal.

Results. Infected or uninfected brain homogenate was identified within the nasal cavities of animals at all time points and was seen crossing the nasal cavity epithelium within minutes of inoculation; the transepithelial transport of brain homogenate continued for up to 3 h after inoculation. Infected or uninfected brain homogenate was seen adhering to, or located within, M cells at all time points. However, larger volumes of infected or uninfected brain homogenate were identified crossing between cells of the olfactory and respiratory epithelia in multiple locations. In addition, infected or uninfected brain homogenate was identified within the lumen of lymphatic vessels in the lamina propria beneath the nasal mucosa at all time points.

Conclusion. Transepithelial transport of prions across nasal cavity mucosa begins within minutes of inhalation and can continue for up to 3 h. While M cells appear to transport prions across the follicular associated epithelium, larger amounts of prions are transported between the cells of the respiratory and olfactory epithelia, where they immediately enter the lymphatic vessels in the lamina propria. Thus, inhaled prions can be spread via lymph draining the nasal cavity and have access to somatic and autonomic nerves in the lamina propria of the nasal cavity. The increased efficiency of the nasal cavity route of infection compared with the oral route may be due to the rapid and prolonged transport of prions between cells of the respiratory and olfactory epithelia.


www.landesbioscience.com/journals/prion/04-Prion6-2-Pathogenesis-and-pathology.pdf



Sunday, July 03, 2011

Prion Disease Detection, PMCA Kinetics, and IgG in Urine from Naturally/Experimentally Infected Scrapie Sheep and Preclinical/Clinical CWD Deer

chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2011/07/prion-disease-detection-pmca-kinetics.html



Thursday, June 09, 2011

Detection of CWD prions in salivary, urinary, and intestinal tissues of deer: potentl mechanisms of prion shedding and transmission

chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2011/06/detection-of-cwd-prions-in-salivary.html



CHRONIC WASTING DISEASE: A MODEL FOR PRION TRANSMISSION VIA SALIVA AND URINE

digitool.library.colostate.edu///exlibris/dtl/d3_1/apache_media/L2V4bGlicmlzL2R0bC9kM18xL2FwYWNoZV9tZWRpYS85NTk1OA==.pdf



Sunday, December 06, 2009

Detection of Sub-Clinical CWD Infection in Conventional Test-Negative Deer Long after Oral Exposure to Urine and Feces from CWD+ Deer

chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2009/12/detection-of-sub-clinical-cwd-infection.html



Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Detection of CWD Prions in Urine and Saliva of Deer by Transgenic Mouse Bioassay

chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2009/03/detection-of-cwd-prions-in-urine-and.html



*** Tuesday, September 02, 2008

Detection of infectious prions in urine (Soto et al Available online 13 August 2008.)

chronic-wasting-disease.blogspot.com/2008/09/detection-of-infectious-prions-in-urine.html




DOCKET-- 03D-0186 -- FDA Issues Draft Guidance on Use of Material From Deer and Elk in Animal Feed; Availability

Date: Fri, 16 May 2003 11:47:37 –0500


EMC 1 Terry S. Singeltary Sr. Vol #: 1


www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/03/Jun03/060903/060903.htm


www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dailys/03/oct03/100203/100203.htm



Subject: MAD DEER/ELK DISEASE AND POTENTIAL SOURCES Date: Sat, 25 May 2002 18:41:46 -0700 From: "Terry S. Singeltary Sr." Reply-To: Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy To: [e-mail]

now, what about those 'deer scents' of 100% urine', and the prion that is found in urine, why not just pass the prion with the urine to other deer...

Mrs. Doe Pee Doe in Estrus Model FDE1 Mrs. Doe Pee's Doe in Estrus is made from Estrus urine collected at the peak of the rut, blended with Fresh Doe Urine for an extremely effective buck enticer. Use pre-rut before the does come into heat. Use during full rut when bucks are most active. Use during post-rut when bucks are still actively looking for does. 1 oz.

www.gamecalls.net/hunting...lures.html

ELK SCENT/SPRAY BOTTLE

Works anytime of the year *

100 % Cow Elk-in-Heat urine (2oz.) *

Economical - mix with water in spray mist bottle *

Use wind to your advantage

Product Code WP-ESB $9.95

www.elkinc.com/Scent.asp


prions in urine?


DEER & ELK URINE, LURES & SCENT CONTROL DEPARTMENT by MRS.DOE PEE'S Main Index

The Turkey Pro Sez... "Premium, fresh, top-quality, pure 100% undiluted deer lures from Mrs. Doe Pee really work. I won't trust anything else when I'm after big bucks. Sam Collora, owner of the company, proved how well his products work when he bagged this monster buck in 1996.............snip......end........CWD

www.turkeyhuntingsecrets.com/store/store-luresandscentcontroldept.htm




PLEASE SEE FULL TEXT SUBMISSION ;


madcowfeed.blogspot.com/2008/07/docket-03d-0186-fda-issues-draft.html



kind regards,
terry

[Deleted]

There is deer urine synthetically made, all reral urine should be banned until it is known for sure if CWD is being spread by its use.

[galthatfishes]

Agree with Terry and John. There is also human urine that works just as well. In fact, we have more pics over Brad's mock scrapes than mine, lol. Must be all that asparagus!

[Deleted]

Dang! So that's the secret? I am a gout sufferer and can't eat asparagus.
;D

[ridgecommander]

I say use it. Unlike John, until it is proven that hunters are spreading CWD through the use of deer urine, I see no reason to not use it or ban it which hurts the hunting industry.

I don't agree with the Al Gore approach to the environment. Ban it all first then sort it out later.

[galthatfishes]

Its proven that its in urine. Its proven that when prions bond with soil electrostatically, its 700 times more contagious. So you say use it?

I'm surprised, and saddened by that.

[Deleted]

Added a poll to keep this simple... I hope. Since I'm by no mean an expert hunter, my main goal with the scent is to cover up my mistakes.

I have a feeling this is a case of "If I have to ask, I know the answer."

flounder: Thanks for all of the info, but I'm a bit overloaded by it all. Yay or Nay?

[ridgecommander]

No doubt that urine from infected animals is suspect. What I said is that until it is proven that hunters are spreading the disease through the use of urine based products, allow its use by hunters.

There are many theories out there on many things. I would prefer that we see hard evidence before actions are taken that will affect and hurt folks livelyhoods. I am not a fan of the current enviromental movement that is gaining steam these days. Show me hard evidence the coal fired furnaces are contributing to global warming, then we can look at cleaning them up.

The Al Gore approach to the environment is hurting hard working people. This CWD issue has the potential to be no different.

[Deleted]

CWD prions are in deer urine. CWD usually starts on captive cervid farms. Deer urine is collected at deer farms and shipped across the country. Prions are shed into the urine before the disease is noticeable so it is entirely possible that urine with prions in it is being sold and put on the ground where wild deer can be infected. It is not a necessity to use deer urine to hunt and a synthetic is available. I really don't care about the industry, let them raise cattle, if a product that can infect our wild deer nationwide is being sold it should be stopped as soon as possible. It is possible that CWD will mutate and jump as did mad cow disease which is in the same family as CWD. I am no Al Gore, in fact I am the antithesis of Al Gore and I don't think stopping the sale of an unnecessary risk is extreme, in fact it would be irresponsible not to do it.

[Deleted]

With the info/facts that are available, why would anyone use deer urine and "risk" the spread of CWD in the wild PA deer herd??

What's the benefit?? What's the risk?? Asked yourself that question and the answer to the question (poll) is a no-brainer.
It should be banned.

[ridgecommander]

Nov 21, 2012 9:08:11 GMT -5 @tracker said:

I really don't care about the industry, let them raise cattle, if a product that can infect our wild deer nationwide is being sold it should be stopped as soon as possible. It is possible that CWD will mutate and jump as did mad cow disease which is in the same family as CWD.

Raising cattle is no different than raising deer. Both have the potential to contribute to the rapid spread of a disease that can and will move to wild herds. But, we as hunters choose to wage war on deer farms and those that depend on them.

Same as raising pheasants or oysters.

The fact is the farming of any animal has the potential to cause problems and is the genesis for many a disease. Shut em all down then and see what we have left. When we start supporting the closure of farming operations, the ball will begin rolling.

Precautions and routine testing are the answers. Hysteria is not.

[Deleted]

Right now the problem is deer farms, not only in PA but in the US. We have seen the results. You may want to wait, I prefer to be proactive. There are testing procedures, they are woefully lacking, many of the deer farms in PA ignore the rules and safe guards and do what they feel like doing. If a butcher shop is selling beef that contains disease, they are shut down, since you want to make a wide comparison and following your suggestion, the deer farms are vecvors for disease, they should be shut down.

[ridgecommander]

Nov 21, 2012 10:09:14 GMT -5 @tracker said:

There are testing procedures, they are woefully lacking, many of the deer farms in PA ignore the rules and safe guards and do what they feel like doing.

As with gun laws, enforce the ones on the book, not create more beaurocracy.

If a butcher shop is selling beef that contains disease, they are shut down, since you want to make a wide comparison and following your suggestion, the deer farms are vecvors for disease, they should be shut down.

I can agree there. The specific farms that are problems. Not shut down a whole industry.

Some wish to see us foraging for fruits and berries.

[melody]

Nov 21, 2012 8:44:36 GMT -5 @cl3 said:

Since I'm by no mean an expert hunter, my main goal with the scent is to cover up my mistakes.

If you are just trying to cover up your own scent, you can use a light dose of fox urine. Just spray a small amount on the soles of your shoes. But go lightly. Don't want the deer to think there's a huge pack of foxes waiting to ambush them.

[galthatfishes]

Exactly Mel.

Gene, would you mind if I got you some lure produced at a CWD positive farm and spread it where you hunt? I mean, its not 100%; so your hunting locals could serve as the test dummies.

Sound good?

[ridgecommander]

Nov 21, 2012 13:26:27 GMT -5 galthatfishes said:

Gene, would you mind if I got you some lure produced at a CWD positive farm and spread it where you hunt? I mean, its not 100%; so your hunting locals could serve as the test dummies.

Sound good?

As I discussed with John, enforce the laws on the books. Any farm that tests postive for CWD should be shut down. If that farm produced meat, animals for high fences, semen, eggs or scent products, those products would cease to be on the market and a recall would occur on any that are out there in distribution.

I don't recall suggesting that we should purposely sell and use urine from CWD farms? Did I? Not sure where you felt my responses dictated that hypothetical scenario.

Would I encourage someone using urine from a farm that is CWD positive? Absolutely not. Do I have a problem with urine based products being produced and sold? No, based on what we know currently about the disease and approaches that have been taken elsewhere. Which haven't worked.

Monitor the farms, enforce the laws, strengthen the laws, require more testing. Whatever it takes. Closing down a whole industry is way off base.

The industry of animal farming is huge. Deer are one animal of thousands that are farmed with all potentially the cause for disease and impact to wild herds, flocks, schools and people. You test, regulate and contain when a problem is found.

[flounder]

Nov 21, 2012 8:44:36 GMT -5 @cl3 said:

Added a poll to keep this simple... I hope. Since I'm by no mean an expert hunter, my main goal with the scent is to cover up my mistakes.

I have a feeling this is a case of "If I have to ask, I know the answer."

flounder: Thanks for all of the info, but I'm a bit overloaded by it all. Yay or Nay?

NAY !



in my opinion ;


deer urine

mineral licks

unnatural food plots

unnatural feed plots

unnatural feeding grounds


if you dump a load of beets, corn, and or plant and apple orchard, for the purpose of hunting, you are contributing to the cwd problem.


anything that brings the unnatural congregation of cervids together, should all be banned, until science tells us otherwise. at this time, science is telling us, actually, science is screaming, to ban all of the above, if for no other reason, it brings the unnatural congregation of cervids, which brings forth disease. ...




kind regards,
terry

[ridgecommander]

Gal,

And I would add this is now the second time you have gotten testy with someone who has been nothing but civil in the discussion at hand when it comes to CWD. It seems you don't like to see opposing views about this disease and how it is being addressed in this state in this forum?

As I said before, I agree with much of the plan and I disagree with some of it. Not everyone is gonna tow the line that some wish to see every hunter tow.

[ridgecommander]

Nov 21, 2012 14:25:06 GMT -5 flounder said:

if you dump a load of beets, corn, and or plant and apple orchard, for the purpose of hunting, you are contributing to the cwd problem.

anything that brings the unnatural congregation of cervids together, should all be banned, until science tells us otherwise. at this time, science is telling us, actually, science is screaming, to ban all of the above, if for no other reason, it brings the unnatural congregation of cervids, which brings forth disease. ...

kind regards,
terry

I have made that point as well. If we want to be serious about addressing it, we can't single out deer cane, acorn rage, corn piles etc... when Brassica plots, beans etc... that are planting to congregate deer in November for hunting purposes get a pass. Or grandma and her birdfeeder being ignored while hunter Dan and his trail camera get the citation.

Ban it all or none of it.

Selectively banning certian things only targets specific user groups. With deer being wanting to congregate naturally, I am skeptical that any feed or attractant ban would make a lick of difference anyways.

[galthatfishes]

Nov 21, 2012 14:31:42 GMT -5 ridgecommander said:

Gal,

And I would add this is now the second time you have gotten testy with someone who has been nothing but civil in the discussion at hand when it comes to CWD. It seems you don't like to see opposing views about this disease and how it is being addressed in this state in this forum?

As I said before, I agree with much of the plan and I disagree with some of it. Not everyone is gonna tow the line that some wish to see every hunter tow.

I'm sorry you think I was getting testy. I assure you; I wasn't.

I simply want to know how comfortable you would be if it were placed on YOUR hunting grounds.

[dennyf]

Sorry, but I do not consider cervid farming to be in the same "league" as gun control, when it comes to not needing more laws, but merely more enforcement.

Giving jurisdiction to an agency that (as many suspected when it was done), is clearly not up to the task, is the issue. Some predicted this might happen, because they (AG) apparently have little clue about what is going on, or how many "undocumented" cervid operations there are in PA, as an example.

If someone decides to buy a few calves and run some beef without AG knowing about it, no big deal. That's been going on for as long as people have kept cattle and no one could keep a handle on how many such small operations exist.

Tad different with cervid farming, as the laws/regs dictate that ALL such operations must operate within the laws governing that industry, including permitting, registration, inspections and minimum standards for confinement and testing.

And if a few operators have been selling, trading or buying deer without complying with the regs, it can be a big deal. We now have one such "known" situation with an unlicensed operation having a deer connected to CWD, that admits the deer had escaped many months ago.

PDA has been dropping this ball long before CWD appeared here and they have done little to rectify that situation since CWD appeared in PA. Not only do we have lax enforcement of existing requirements, but we have undocumented operations that may be far more common than anyone suspected?

So yes, there are "targeted segments of the population" now under the microscope and part of the current problem, is that they were apparently left alone for far too long.

As an example, if PGC found out someone might be keeping deer without the required permit, when they were the agency charged with deer farming, such leads were investigated and dealt with, not ignored or looked into when they "had the time".

[Bill]

Put me on the list of thinking urine based scents for deer should be banned. We already know the prions stay in the ground forever, I assume that would be true with a bottle of deer urine as well? How many of these farms sold urine and how much of it is sitting on shelves as we speak?

Suppose a hunter, through no fault of his own, uses one of these bottles, let's say in the elk range while hunting deer. Just not worth the risk in my opinion.

Deer and elk are social animals and are in constant contact with one another directly or indirectly, but why risk speeding up the process of spreading the disease into different areas of the state?

[Deleted]

Yeah, I see no need to use that stuff.
I killed a nice buck over Kirchner's " curiosity" lure many years ago, but in the overall result category, I spooked more bucks than I brought in and the bucks I did bring in were mostly juveniles.

Why risk it?