Disabled hunter access to State Game Lands

[davet]

I know I've probably either directly or indirectly mentioned the issue of a disabled hunter having access to hunting lands. More specifically, public hunting lands. Now, I know some of the forum members here have mentioned there are places where a disabled hunter (like myself) can go and have access to hunt deer, or even stocked pheasant's. If you do know of such places, please post them so I can find out what the rules are.

Now, please don't take my post as one that I am "complaining" because what I am trying to do is "explain" and at times when you attempt to explain, it gets really close to complain. One of the current Pa. laws is that if you are "permanently" bound to a wheelchair, you are permitted to traverse any State Game Land on an electric wheelchair. Now, I'm very thankful that I am not permanently bound to a wheelchair. (Believe me, there are people who have it much worse than I do.) OTOH, it's difficult for me to walk much farther than 100 (that's with a cane) yards (because I have to walk 100 yards back) without becoming exhausted. MS just does this to me. However, what I am fortunate enough to have is a highly modified electric golf cart that gets me around on gas well roads, logging roads, and fields. Of course, the initial reaction of those who think "ATV" is that I'm out there rutting up fields or roads, etc. But, stop for a minuet and think.....what golf course have you been on, or have you seen with golf cart made ruts? You don't. Because golf courses have far too much money in fairway grass to let golf carts rut them up. The same is true of my highly modified EZ-GO cart. The top speed is 7-mph. But it has torque to climb 35-degree hills with two passengers and a dead deer on it with no problems. Plus....it's as quiet as a church mouse and leaves no spent fuel residue.

So, what's my point here? My point is "Disabled Hunter Access" to public lands. Yup. It's really pretty simple. There are lands that the PGC leases from the Army Corps' of Engineers for hunting that is 30 minutes from where I live that I cannot hunt.....because I am not permitted to use my cart on. If I were permitted, I could hunt on it. But, nearby I have permission to use my cart on County owned land and on a local Township owned park. For the County it took me 2 months to get the permit as I was the first to ask, but the local township just said....we have no restrictions on disabled hunters. If you have a valid shoot from a vehicle permit, you can use your ATV to access our property. See? EZ.

And I'm a bit befuddled as to why we continue to use "Wheelchair" as the language. Isn't it really a "Disabled access vehicle"? Some of these Disabled access vehicle's are good for indoors and outdoors, and some only for outdoors. The Trac wheelchairs cost $12K to $15K each, and this is really what it would take for a permanently bound wheelchair individual to have access to gamelands.

Now, independence is also an issue. I "only" became disabled to the point where I needed my electric cart about 7 years ago. In fact, prior to ten years ago I never gave disability access a second thought. Why? Because I wasn't disabled. It's not like I didn't have sympathy for the disabled, but I never thought of it because it didn't directly effect me. But....now it does. Believe me....most men....me included....don't really want to rely on anyone to go hunting or fishing. We just want to hunt or fish. But that's tough to do without access to the woods.....and sitting by the road in a vehicle is......really.....perhaps not the best place to hunt.

So, it's my plan to attend the September 22 Game Commission meeting and explain this to the BOC. My plan, so to speak, is to hopefully squeeze this small matter onto their plate. I know it doesn't effect a vast majority of hunters, but it does effect some.

And besides, (and I don't want this to sound "snarky") but if the hikers, bikers, and horsey riders are looking to have access to the game lands, then why not the hunters who are, and have been buying a license since the late '60's, but now because of a disease can no longer walk, why can they not have more access to the lands? If the vehicle is electric and has tires that are not going to harm anything, the vehicle is quiet, the vehicle has no emissions, and it permits a disabled hunter to get out there, then what's the down side?

Dave

[galthatfishes]

Sept 7, 2014 19:47:16 GMT -5 davet said:

I know I've probably either directly or indirectly mentioned the issue of a disabled hunter having access to hunting lands. More specifically, public hunting lands. Now, I know some of the forum members here have mentioned there are places where a disabled hunter (like myself) can go and have access to hunt deer, or even stocked pheasant's. If you do know of such places, please post them so I can find out what the rules are.

Now, please don't take my post as one that I am "complaining" because what I am trying to do is "explain" and at times when you attempt to explain, it gets really close to complain. One of the current Pa. laws is that if you are "permanently" bound to a wheelchair, you are permitted to traverse any State Game Land on an electric wheelchair. Now, I'm very thankful that I am not permanently bound to a wheelchair. (Believe me, there are people who have it much worse than I do.) OTOH, it's difficult for me to walk much farther than 100 (that's with a cane) yards (because I have to walk 100 yards back) without becoming exhausted. MS just does this to me. However, what I am fortunate enough to have is a highly modified electric golf cart that gets me around on gas well roads, logging roads, and fields. Of course, the initial reaction of those who think "ATV" is that I'm out there rutting up fields or roads, etc. But, stop for a minuet and think.....what golf course have you been on, or have you seen with golf cart made ruts? You don't. Because golf courses have far too much money in fairway grass to let golf carts rut them up. The same is true of my highly modified EZ-GO cart. The top speed is 7-mph. But it has torque to climb 35-degree hills with two passengers and a dead deer on it with no problems. Plus....it's as quiet as a church mouse and leaves no spent fuel residue.

So, what's my point here? My point is "Disabled Hunter Access" to public lands. Yup. It's really pretty simple. There are lands that the PGC leases from the Army Corps' of Engineers for hunting that is 30 minutes from where I live that I cannot hunt.....because I am not permitted to use my cart on. If I were permitted, I could hunt on it. But, nearby I have permission to use my cart on County owned land and on a local Township owned park. For the County it took me 2 months to get the permit as I was the first to ask, but the local township just said....we have no restrictions on disabled hunters. If you have a valid shoot from a vehicle permit, you can use your ATV to access our property. See? EZ.

And I'm a bit befuddled as to why we continue to use "Wheelchair" as the language. Isn't it really a "Disabled access vehicle"? Some of these Disabled access vehicle's are good for indoors and outdoors, and some only for outdoors. The Trac wheelchairs cost $12K to $15K each, and this is really what it would take for a permanently bound wheelchair individual to have access to gamelands.

Now, independence is also an issue. I "only" became disabled to the point where I needed my electric cart about 7 years ago. In fact, prior to ten years ago I never gave disability access a second thought. Why? Because I wasn't disabled. It's not like I didn't have sympathy for the disabled, but I never thought of it because it didn't directly effect me. But....now it does. Believe me....most men....me included....don't really want to rely on anyone to go hunting or fishing. We just want to hunt or fish. But that's tough to do without access to the woods.....and sitting by the road in a vehicle is......really.....perhaps not the best place to hunt.

So, it's my plan to attend the September 22 Game Commission meeting and explain this to the BOC. My plan, so to speak, is to hopefully squeeze this small matter onto their plate. I know it doesn't effect a vast majority of hunters, but it does effect some.

And besides, (and I don't want this to sound "snarky") but if the hikers, bikers, and horsey riders are looking to have access to the game lands, then why not the hunters who are, and have been buying a license since the late '60's, but now because of a disease can no longer walk, why can they not have more access to the lands? If the vehicle is electric and has tires that are not going to harm anything, the vehicle is quiet, the vehicle has no emissions, and it permits a disabled hunter to get out there, then what's the down side?

Dave

THIS is something worth-while and needed to keep hunters like you active Dave. This; rather than a user fee for horse and bike (etc folks) involves a core reason Game Lands exist- for hunting.

[Dutch]

Dave a very good idea to attend that meeting. Get the conversation started.

[galthatfishes]

Dave;

I'll see you at the meeting. Would you like to have lunch?

[Dutch]

The last year my Dad hunted, he used his truck to hunt on a SGL road. he hated it.

I took him out on the atv, but, he could not handle the cold air. I literally had to rush him out of the woods and into a warm truck for him to breath. Kinda scary.

It was tough watching him give it all up, and just the other day, he said he would still be hunting, if he could.

More and more are in your situation Dave, and we all need to realize that, "there but for the grace of God, go I." More should be done.

Did you know that DCNR has many roads open for deer hunters? At least in Potter, if you are disabled and want to hunt a certain area, they will give you a key to the gate? How cool is that? DCNR has a less restrictive program than the PGC, it would seem, at least in some areas.

[davet]

Sept 7, 2014 21:14:00 GMT -5 galthatfishes said:

Dave;

I'll see you at the meeting. Would you like to have lunch?

Kathy,

I do thank you for the offer however I can honestly sat that with getting to the meeting (which is not far from where I live..about ten minutes), and "presenting my case" (for lack of using a better description) what I would like to do is possibly talk to a commissioner after the meeting. After I "spend" my energy on this, my morning will pretty much be done....as in mentally exhausted. (Back "in the day" that use to be a sprinkle of salt on the day's plate!!) I will need to get back home to my waiting favorite chair and take a 2 hour snooze at a minimum. I'm not complaining, I'm just explaining. Now, if I were hunting I could stay out until noon or maybe one o'clock. It takes a lot of energy to stay alert for deer that long....even when your not carrying on a conversation or attempting to make a point.

Dutch,

The DCNR seems to be a bit more relaxed on allowing the disabled access to their lands. I know this year I wanted to do some fly fishing (you actually can fly fish from a chair....in small streams...and catch fish just as well as the non-disabled) on a stream located on DCNR property. I put in a request at their office and had a permit and the HC sticker to put on my cart within 4 hours!! I was amazed at the speed!! Then I found out I could also hunt this land if I wanted to. (Not the best place for either deer or bear though)

BTW, the plus for using a modified golf cart is, they have windshields that take the wind right out of the picture. Even on dead still days of no wind, driving at a 5mph speed will chill you down in no time. I also have a "golf caddy" propane heater that fits in the cart's cup holder. (Yeah buddy!!  If your gonna hunt....hunt in style!!) It takes the chill off on those "snippy" mornings.

Dave

[rkeving]

Here is my story: My son is paralyzed from the waist down, but is an avid hunter. We have applied for, and received both the permit to hunt from a vehicle, and also applied for, and received the Towing Placard and information about using an ATV on State Game Lands.

Here is our problem: We are trying to follow the instructions provided to find the "designated" roads that he is allowed to use the ATV on. After literal hours of driving in and around 1 particular SGL, we can't find anything that is posted, or says "designated" road. The road name and number on the instructions do not match the actual road name and number on the road signs. We stop at every parking area and read the signage, but nothing says anything about a designated road for disabled ATV usage.

Here is the one we've been trying to find: (From the supplied information sheet):

SGL NO. 36 Bradford County -9 miles - From Overton TR 348 approximately 9 miles north to the Kellogg Mountain Tower site.

Well, we drove out there. From Overton, we took Deep Hollow Road- according to Google maps, this should be TR 348, but on the signage, it's TR 372. Drove that all the way to Millstone Road, stopping at every parking area along the way. Couldn't find anything that would help us. Arriving at Millstone Rd, we see the signage saying "TR 348", so, we drove the length of that, all the way back to Overton. Nothing.

Next, we drove to the Kellogg Mountain Tower site. Looked everywhere. Nothing.

Now, I'm not an idiot, but shouldn't this be a bit easier than this? There has to be a disabled permit sign to show the "designated" road, right? Anyone have any insight on any of this?

TIA

[davet]

No, your not an idiot. I had the same problems\issues with my attempt to find the disabled ATV trails at SGL 51 in Fayette county. Finally I stopped at the WCO\gameland workers HQ located about half way up furnace road and stopped in. When I explained my quandary to the WCO, he was very helpful in telling me how to get there. Then, when I got to where I though I should be...which in fact was right, the gate that should have been open was not, and there were no disabled signage on or around the gate.

So, on my way back home, I stopped at the WCO HQ again, and just happened to catch the same WCO as he was leaving and explained to him the situation. One of the employees was standing there and as I told him the gate wasn't open and there was no signage, I think if the WCO had laser eyes the other guy would have been a pile of ashes. The WCO said he would send the guy up there right now to open the gate if I wanted, but I said no, I was to tired. But I came back about 4 days later and the gate was open enough for ATV's and all proper signage was up.

So, what I'm saying is to either stop and ask, or perhaps call the regional office and explain your situation and tell them how many times you have looked for the trail. Keep at it....you will find it and it will be worth it.

Dave

[Deleted]

Thanks for the reply, but now a whole new set of questions.......

How is a paralyzed/disabled person supposed to be able to open and close a gate by themselves? Not going to bring up the whole ADA thing, but.......

Without proper signage, how can one be sure, (without stopping and asking at every time), where and how and when one is supposed to be allowed to use this "convenience"?

When we called Harrisburg and asked about the Towing Placard and ATV use, they assured me that "everything is in the packet". Well, it's just caused more confusion, and more wasted time driving around in search of something that should exist, and apparently doesn't......... only to cause more of a headache.

Sheesh, the kid just wants to shoot at some squirrels. Is that too much to ask?

(Sorry but the frustration level here is at an all time high. Just using this post to vent a bit.) I appreciate the reply and the info.

All the best

[bud16057]

I'm curious wondering how many others are having this problem as well. From personal experience, on the local game lands their is a propagation area. The signage they have posted telling you what you can do at certain times are very poorly worded. I'm not surprised with the trouble you're having. It makes me wonder if it is either a lack of funds or a lack of effort on the part of the PGC that creates this situation.

[blackbruin]

In bald eagle state forest if you go see them at the district officer in howard,they will hook you with access if handicapped. Keys to gates, etc... all they ask is that you close them when done. At least thats how they handled a guy that hunts up by camp.

[davet]

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

Thanks for the reply, but now a whole new set of questions.......

Ask away....no such thing as a "dumb" question when it comes to this subject. IMHO

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

THow is a paralyzed/disabled person supposed to be able to open and close a gate by themselves? Not going to bring up the whole ADA thing, but.......

Well, from my experience so far....what I've seen is for ATV's, the main gate is shut and locked so a car\truck cannot get in. But they open enough space at one side of the gate that allows an ATV to get around it. So, there is no gate that needs to be opened. Of course, anyone with an ATV could go around the gate, but then, if they don't have the permit they run the risk of big tickets and big fines. This is one of the reasons that the disabled ATV user must display the blue HC 8.5" x 11" permit on their truck or auto dash. (The vehicle that towed the ATV there) Then if the PGC hears an ATV on the trail, they can simply stop at the bottom, find the vehicle with the blue HC permit, and double check it to determine it's valid. Much faster than attempting to track down the ATV.

BTW, since your son is "permanently bound to a wheelchair" he can access ALL state gamelands WITH an electric wheelchair. (Not an electric ATV such as I have) But, should he have one of those "Track Wheelchairs"...which are darn costly....but if you can afford 'em, buy one....then your son has unlimited access to all public game lands. But again, this rule only applies to those who are "permanently bound to a wheelchair." I can be very thankful that I'm not in that position.

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

TWithout proper signage, how can one be sure, (without stopping and asking at every time), where and how and when one is supposed to be allowed to use this "convenience"?

Well, once you have it "figured out" (and frankly...once you do some polite complaining) you will find that the local WCO's will direct the employees to do what should be done and they will make corrective action quickly. At least, that's been my experience.

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

T we called Harrisburg and asked about the Towing Placard and ATV use, they assured me that "everything is in the packet". Well, it's just caused more confusion, and more wasted time driving around in search of something that should exist, and apparently doesn't......... only to cause more of a headache.

I feel your pain. And I don't just say that. I've spent hours....and hours reading those "maps" if thats what you want to call 'em....and then Ive gone on line using map quest, and the new PGC interactive map, and some other sources to help me track down just where I need to go. it's frustrating to say the least. That's one of the reason's why I stated it to a PGC commissioner as to why this needed to be a priority on the PGC interactive map. I have spent hundreds of dollars in gas cost before I finally figured out where the only two spots on SGL 51 were for HC ATV access. Now...you would think it would not be that difficult. Nor should it.

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

TSheesh, the kid just wants to shoot at some squirrels. Is that too much to ask?

Nope. It's not. And believe me....I do understand the frustration. But, you will get it figured out. You just need to invest a little more time into what should be a easy task. But like I've said....it's not. If you can get a GPS coordinate to the beginning of the trail, you CAN enter this into your Google maps on your iPhone, if you have an iPhone. Then that will take you right there. Yeah....but the tough part is getting the exact coordinates. (ask me how I know this)

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

T(Sorry but the frustration level here is at an all time high. Just using this post to vent a bit.) I appreciate the reply and the info.

No apologies necessary.....really. I will do my best to help you. After all....I've been doing this for awhile....complaining, hunting, asking, asking nicely in a disguised form of complaining. Going completely ballistic on people who ask the dumbest questions that you could think of. (True....when I was first diagnosed with this disease: "So, how long did they tell you that you have before you will be in a wheelchair?") I'll tell you what I said later. My response was very nice. What I was thinking you could not print.

Oct 4, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

TAll the best

Let me get back to you either later or more likely tomorrow. I have a pile of people that will be here as my youngest is having her wedding shower today, so....people will be over. (Oh Boy!!!) But I'll look at my "stuff" and see if I can be of any help to you.

Dave

[davet]

Ok, all of the family have left and gone home. It's nice to see them all. It's nice they all have homes to go too. So...I've had a chance to look at the PGC map, my paper maps that I received....I think it was 5 years ago when I got my SFTV Permit, and I'm pretty sure they are the same paper maps you got. And I also used my iPhone Google maps (which was very helpful) to get the info that I believe you need....and this should get you and your son to where you need to go. So:

#1-- The "Beginning" of the road you turn off of "TR348" is located at: Lat 41.613644 Lon-76.503339 This is the intersection of "Deep Hollow Road"...and my Google Maps shows that Deep Hollow Road is the same as TR348. BTW, "TR348" means "Township Road 348." (You may know that, but I toss it out anyway) The PGC map doesn't show that....or I cannot find it on the PGC map.

#2-- When you look at SGL 36, it's in two pieces. The piece you want to go to is the one on the right. (Looking down from the map) And BTW....For Basemap, use “Terrain with Labels” and this will show the towers, but not the road. To see roads and road names, switch the "Basemap" to Topographic." Maybe you can figure out what view mode it takes to find where it ID's the TR348...as I've had no luck with that. But, I do know that Deep Hollow Road is in fact TR348.

#3--From the PGC map, it appears that there is a parking area right off of Deep Hollow Road on the ATV trail. But when you look at the map, and using the measuring tools on the map, when you go up the trail just about half-a-mile, there is another parking area, and a gate. (You must zoom in on the PGC map close to see the gate icon.) I would think this gate is the Handicapped ATV access point. BTW, when I use the map freelance measuring tool I "measured" 10.5 miles of ATV access trail. The paper maps say there is approximately 9.0 miles of ATV trail. So, it appears this is the place. That along with the fact that this trail goes right up to the Kellog Mt. tower site. Now, I'm including the spur offshoots trails in my 10.5 miles of trails. Seems you have to because the main trail directly up to the tower site is nowhere near 9 miles.

#4--It appears there is a road that comes in at the north...up near the towers, but on the PGC map it does not label the name of the road. This un-named road connects to Weston Road at Lat 41.684797 Lon -76.506877

I hope this helps you.

Post if you have any questions. I can guarantee an answer.....just not a correct answer!! rofl

[Deleted]

Thanks for the reply and the information.

We originally started out on Deep Hollow, however, the metal road sign, which says "Deep Hollow" also says TR 372.(Google maps lists it as "348", but physically it's "372") It wasn't until we got to Millstone Road (farther north and which Deep Hollow runs into, that we the number TR 348 was actually included on the sign (Millstone). Millstone runs down along the second piece of SGL 36.

The road which comes in from Weston and proceeds up to Kellogg Tower site, is Forrest Rd. My wife and son drove up that road to get to the tower site. They got out and physically looked around and could not see any type of signage.

Son wants to take another look at it this week, so we will possibly try again. He asked what happens if we can't find it? Sarcastically, (I think), I replied, "We'll just fire up the ATV and act like we are in the right spot. If we aren't, we will have all kinds of game wardens all over us in an instant, and THEN we can find out for sure." (Sigh).

Again, I appreciate the input and assistance. We will eventually figure it out, but it seems like it should be a lot easier, and there should be better tools (maybe a map with the instructions and the route highlighted?), and the interactive map, should be, well........ interactive. It is too hard to include a disabled sign on the map?

My son is 16 years old, soon to be 17, and for his entire life, this process of having to figure everything out, and do everything the hard way, has been the norm. Should have expected the worst, and just assumed that this would be just another obstacle to overcome.

Will report back when we get out there again.

Best.

[Deleted]

OK, did some Google Earth views, coupled with our multiple hours of driving and sightseeing experiences:

I know exactly where your lat/long lines land at. We had discounted this as being the road, because when we used the interactive PGC Map and clicked on "Details", the information said: Administrative Road: Closed to the Public. It is labeled as "Kellogg Mountain Road" on the map information.

I guess the best thing to do, is to drive out there (again) and go up to where the gate is, and see what kind of signage is there. Hopefully, it is correctly labeled, and we can get some solid answers.

Again, I know I'm repeating myself, but why does this have to be so hard? They have tons of items listed on their "Legends" table...... why not include a "Disabled ATV Trail" as one of them?

[davet]

I've ask myself and a Game Commissioner the very same question. As for myself....with my background it doesn't seem like it's rocket science. Why? Well....because it's not rocket science. Nor brain surgery. And that's good because the last time I looked.....there were no Board Certified Brain Surgeons on the Game Commission Board or staff. Lucky us....eh?

OTOH, the Commissioner did state he would have a staffer delve into this. Perhaps an email to them would "encourage" this to happen. No reason for it to not happen. Heck...they have "Latrine's" listed on the map. Really? Latrine's? We need those on the map? Hey.....for me the entire woods is a "Latrine." If you click the map it should be one big L But....you know....

Again, if I were you I would for sure call the office that serves your region and politely tell them you don't have the HC signage up that is suppose to be there. But, I would have no problems going up there with my permit and dash board tag....unloading my cart and I would go hunting on that trail. There's no doubt it's the right place. They just need to put the correct signage on it.

Dave

[Deleted]

Thanks Dave. We will check it out and see what is there. Once we have this one figured out, I might just have to do some letter writing and exercise my rights as a PA citizen and taxpayer.

Will report back on our next excursion. Thanks again.

[Dutch]

Rkeving is your only hunting option public lands?

[Deleted]

No, I have 10 acres, but houses are close by, and when deer season starts, everyone thinks they need to sit right on my property line and watch into my property.

Son was hoping to find a way to get himself into some SGL, where he could get isolated enough to "just hunt".

If it was me, I would have said it was too much work and too complicated to keep trying to figure out. But ever since my son was born (Spina Bifida), we determined that whatever he put his mind to want to do, or try to do, we would help him out with. It's part of him being independent and feeling "normal". 

So, again, for me, it's now moved from just trying to get him into a SGL to hunt, it's getting more to: How come we are being told there are accessible options for disabled people, and it's so dang hard to figure out? Time to hold the state government accountable, it looks like.

[zimmerstutzen]

When the disabled ATV regs were first passed for SGL's, I offered to allow a handicapped neighbor to use my three wheel truck and we sent a email with a picture to the PGC and were told because it doesn't qualify as an ATV it can't be used. It qualified as to everything under the definition of ATV except width. Two inches too wide. And since the use is limited to licensed ATV's, golf carts cannot qualify. Thought it was dumb then and still. I'd rather the electric golf carts. As far as I know, there was only one electric ATV maker, but they did not have bench seats and I don;t think the company lasted. I have seen some modified Segway's that could handle some rough terrain. IIRC Police in Belair Maryland have one used to patrol parks. Saw the officer climb a bank and go out into the woods on one.

Oddly a person with difficulty walking, could hunt from a horse, but can't use an electric bike.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 5:53:03 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

No, I have 10 acres, but houses are close by, and when deer season starts, everyone thinks they need to sit right on my property line and watch into my property.

Son was hoping to find a way to get himself into some SGL, where he could get isolated enough to "just hunt".

If it was me, I would have said it was too much work and too complicated to keep trying to figure out. But ever since my son was born (Spina Bifida), we determined that whatever he put his mind to want to do, or try to do, we would help him out with. It's part of him being independent and feeling "normal". 

So, again, for me, it's now moved from just trying to get him into a SGL to hunt, it's getting more to: How come we are being told there are accessible options for disabled people, and it's so dang hard to figure out? Time to hold the state government accountable, it looks like.

My sister inlaw has spina bifida she will be 31 this month. I know what its about. wish your son luck this year.

[Deleted]

Oct 6, 2014 8:09:29 GMT -5 stroupy said:

Oct 6, 2014 5:53:03 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

My sister inlaw has spina bifida she will be 31 this month. I know what its about. wish your son luck this year.

A bit off topic but......

We just went to Wyoming and my son pushed his wheelchair over a mile, over the sage grass and cactus, to take a 444 yrd shot at a pronghorn buck. Then, over another mile to claim his trophy and get back to the vehicle.  

If you go to WNEP's PA Outdoor Life People and Places slideshow: wnep.com/2014/07/24/2014-people-and-places-slideshow-5/  you can see a pic of him with his antelope. 

So, after going through this success, we come home to find the "headache" of trying out how to hunt public land in our own backyard. Yikes!

[davet]

Oct 6, 2014 8:04:23 GMT -5 zimmerstutzen said:

When the disabled ATV regs were first passed for SGL's, I offered to allow a handicapped neighbor to use my three wheel truck and we sent a email with a picture to the PGC and were told because it doesn't qualify as an ATV it can't be used. It qualified as to everything under the definition of ATV except width. Two inches too wide. And since the use is limited to licensed ATV's, golf carts cannot qualify. Thought it was dumb then and still. I'd rather the electric golf carts. As far as I know, there was only one electric ATV maker, but they did not have bench seats and I don;t think the company lasted. I have seen some modified Segway's that could handle some rough terrain. IIRC Police in Belair Maryland have one used to patrol parks. Saw the officer climb a bank and go out into the woods on one.

Oddly a person with difficulty walking, could hunt from a horse, but can't use an electric bike.

Well, I don't want to say you were wrong then, as I don't know when you attempted to obtain a license for this vehicle, but I can tell you that today, it is very much possible to register a golf cart as an ATV. Now, ...and I'm going off of memory, I don't believe you can register a STOCK golf cart as an ATV. (I registered my highly modified EZ-GO, I think it was 6 years ago, so my memory has faded a bit since then) When I registered mine I had to provide the DCNR with my purchase invoice showing that I paid sales tax. In my case, since I purchased mine from a builder located out of State, I paid the sales tax on the application. The invoice listed all of the modifications to the stock cart. I also had to include pictures of the cart, front and rear, along with the weight of the vehicle and the with and length of it. Now, my cart is listed as a Class II since it weighs just over 1,000-lbs, and I'm not sure now, but it may be just a tad wider than the 50". You can find out more at the State ATV registration web site here: [ahref="http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/recreation/atv/atvregistration/index.htm"]link[/a]

Of course, I have ATV tires on it....as honestly, you do NOT want to go out with standard golf course tires on a cart. Why? Because of the tire ply rating and the tread design, your asking for a flat and\or your asking to get stuck. It's just plain dumb. It would be like going on a Yukon trail with a 2WD Cheby with bald summer tires. My Cart has true posi-traction. No slip-differential like a standard golf cart has. I also have a 48-volt system. The standard cart is 36-volt. My Controller is an Alltrax 500-amp model that is adjustable.

The reason the PGC and DCNR puts the "Licensed" requirement on the ATV is because if they didn't, you would have every Tom, Dick, and Sally out there simply calling everything from their John Deer lawn tractor to a Cat D-9 their "ATV" and driving it on State and PGC HC trails. The license requirement for these....well...unusual vehicles prevents this from occurring. And I think it makes sense.

And here's a pic of my EZ-GO:



I have a winch on the front and back, and my top speed is 7mph!! (Yes...I really wow the hunting chicks with that!!) This will climb easily a 35 degree grade....and actually steeper if only i could get traction. The set up is such that even under full throttle, the wheels will spin, but you do not get a "toss the dirt rooster tail" like a regular ATV will do. In fact, if it toss's dirt longer than 3' in a stuck position, that's pretty far. But when I get stuck, it's winch time. (No...not Wench time...my wife would not let me get that option!!!)

Dave

[davet]

Oct 6, 2014 9:30:11 GMT -5 @rkeving said:

Oct 6, 2014 8:09:29 GMT -5 stroupy said:

My sister inlaw has spina bifida she will be 31 this month. I know what its about. wish your son luck this year.

A bit off topic but......

We just went to Wyoming and my son pushed his wheelchair over a mile, over the sage grass and cactus, to take a 444 yrd shot at a pronghorn buck. Then, over another mile to claim his trophy and get back to the vehicle.  

If you go to WNEP's PA Outdoor Life People and Places slideshow: wnep.com/2014/07/24/2014-people-and-places-slideshow-5/  you can see a pic of him with his antelope. 

So, after going through this success, we come home to find the "headache" of trying out how to hunt public land in our own backyard. Yikes!

Very nice Pronghorn!!! I took one of those myself about 3 years ago. I spent most of the summer practicing shooting at groundhogs out to 500 and 600 yards. As it turned out (as things like this usually do) it just took one 150 yard shot and it was all over!! Still, pretty exciting!! Congrats to your son!! Those are great memories. I had 3 buddies to retrieve, field dress, and photo mine. Heck....I just had to shoot it!!!

[Deleted]

I'll make a few comments on the Pronghorn hunt, and then promise to get this back on the topic of Disabled Access on SGLs......

Probably the biggest aspect of taking this Pronghorn, is the fact that he chose to do a straight up, no "disabled advantage", fair chase hunt. He pushed his wheelchair 1000 yrds into the field where we spotted the buck bedded. He then stalked over 500 yrds, with me crouching/crawling behind him with the rifle and Caldwell DeadRest, to a point where a doe spotted us and locked in on us. Then, we set up and ranged him, using on the mil dots in the scope and guessing the windage. We didn't account for "Western Ballistics" and his first shot was just high. (2 mil high, 1 mil right for wind). The buck ran about 20 yrds and stopped, and son threw the 2nd shot home (1 mil high, 1 mil right). Son then pushed his chair over 400 yrds to help locate the downed trophy.

I did the butchering work, and caped it right there on the spot. After that, I loaded up everything I could carry, (mostly just the meat and the cape), and my son loaded up the rest on his wheelchair (rifle, binoculars, jackets, trash bag), and then pushed approximately 1200 yrds to the road, where I picked him up.

Although not a "world class" trophy, we know the effort and skill that went into the hunt, and for that reason, we had no choice but to get a full shoulder mount done. When I picked him up with the truck, and I saw the emotions on his face: weary from all the pushing, yet overjoyed with what he accomplished, I thought maybe a full mount should have been in order.

This is one of the reasons with my frustrations over this SGL deal. My son isn't looking for a handout or an advantage over everyone, or anyone else. Just give him the opportunity to participate, and level the playing field where it needs to be leveled, and he will get it done.

There is no reason that the PGC cannot provide me, or anyone else, with a specific map, and specific directions, and a specifically marked access trail that someone in this type of need can use to participate in a hunt. As I once told an individual who informed me that their building was indeed "Handicap Accessible": "Why don't you sit in a wheelchair, and drive to navigate your "Handicap Accessible" building, and then tell me how "accessible" it is?"

Needless to say, some changes were made in a hurry, when that person "walked" a few steps in someone else's shoes. Maybe some WCO's or politicians need to become "disabled" for a day or 2, and see just how difficult it is for someone to find and utilize these "accessible" trails.

For most of my son's hunts, he uses Google maps and does his "scouting" from his computer. He can't do the field work that most others can, so he uses what is available to him. Last deer season, he told me where to drive deer from, and determined where he was going to set up his stand. (Deer in the freezer too!) He used it for the Wyoming hunt and it was great. No reason he shouldn't be able to use his computer to pinpoint an access trail, and be able to plot his drive course and his parking needs, BEFORE he is actually there and realizes that he needs more assistance or information, because then, it's too late.

Could rant and rave all day, but will get down off the soap box. I appreciate all the information and the support from here. We will keep plugging away until we figure it out, and hopefully, we will be able to get changed what needs changing, and be able to help others along that are in the same boat.

Best all.