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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 15:15:45 GMT -5
Increasing the odds of putting a tag on the deer has little to do with the caliber of the gun used or how big it is. The answers are elsewhere. Bullschidt. I can hit a deer almost anywhere with a 30-06 150 grain and recover it within 200 yards. I've hit em in the neck, shoulders, guts, and hams with that load. Even hit plenty in the ribcage. Farthest one was a gut shot I found stone dead 200 yards away
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Post by Dutch on Mar 10, 2024 15:47:40 GMT -5
Just took a quick check on some brass from different suppliers. Looks like it's becoming slim Pickens again, and what you do find is an arm and a leg. Glad I don't need what I checked on. Oh, I got an email last week from midway that 308 Winchester brass was back in stock, Remington brass, just checked, gone, no backorder. I was looking for 243 brass a few weeks back, none to be found. I bought 2 boxes of Remington factory loads, 80 grain. $26 each. Now I'll have brass and get to plink
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Post by Dutch on Mar 10, 2024 15:55:41 GMT -5
Increasing the odds of putting a tag on the deer has little to do with the caliber of the gun used or how big it is. The answers are elsewhere. Bullschidt. I can hit a deer almost anywhere with a 30-06 150 grain and recover it within 200 yards. I've hit em in the neck, shoulders, guts, and hams with that load. Even hit plenty in the ribcage. Farthest one was a gut shot I found stone dead 200 yards away I used to shoot an 06, and there is margin of error there, for sure. It just seems do a good bit of damage.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 16:08:47 GMT -5
Bullschidt. I can hit a deer almost anywhere with a 30-06 150 grain and recover it within 200 yards. I've hit em in the neck, shoulders, guts, and hams with that load. Even hit plenty in the ribcage. Farthest one was a gut shot I found stone dead 200 yards away If you hit them in the neck, guts, hams or shoulders with a 30/30 or 243 and don't recover the deer, the problem was not the caliber as I said previously. Hit them in the vitals with any caliber, and the deer is dead quickly. Hit them somewhere else like the above and deer is still likely to end up dead and it is up to the hunter to make good decisions on the recovery. Relying on something bigger to make up for poor shots or poor recovery strategies from the beginning, is just setting up for more of the same. The biggest thing one could do to increase recoveries is to make better shots and better decisions after the shots.
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 16:15:46 GMT -5
Let's see how you do big man with deer running past you on deer drives. Let's see if all your shots are in the heart
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Post by davet on Mar 10, 2024 16:18:17 GMT -5
You gotta sever the blood flow, or the nervous system. Anything else & your looking at tail.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 16:22:29 GMT -5
Let's see how you do big man with deer running past you on deer drives. Let's see if all your shots are in the heart Refer to this post above; . If you hit them in the neck, guts, hams or shoulders with a 30/30 or 243 and don't recover the deer, the problem was not the caliber as I said previously. Hit them in the vitals with any caliber, and the deer is dead quickly. Hit them somewhere else like the above and deer is still likely to end up dead and it is up to the hunter to make good decisions on the recovery. Relying on something bigger to make up for poor shots or poor recovery strategies from the beginning, is just setting up for more of the same. The biggest thing one could do to increase recoveries is to make better shots and better decisions after the shots.
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 16:31:15 GMT -5
The drive captain had a word for guys like you who were afraid to shoot; Permanent driver. I never held that title because I learned to shoot early and often
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 16:39:30 GMT -5
The drive captain had a word for guys like you who were afraid to shoot; Permanent driver. I never held that title because I learned to shoot early and often I am not afraid to shoot. I prefer to take high percentage shots and am completely comfortable taking them. I owe that to the animal. Others opinions may vary. We do drives as well and used to do a lot of them in flintlock. I don't take running shots now and still manage to shoot deer. How you drive can be an important factor in how the deer react and the shot opportunities that hunters get. I can only remember one deer that I hit with a centerfire rifle that I did not recover. Several I recovered the next day but I recovered them. Even the above conversation does not change the fact that if you hit a deer with a 30/30 or 243 in the guts or hams and don't recover it, the problem again was not the caliber but the decisions made on the recovery.
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 16:49:59 GMT -5
You don't take running shots so you shouldn't even be offering your 2 cents. You don't know what it takes to anchor running game
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Post by Loggy on Mar 10, 2024 17:27:48 GMT -5
A lot of rifle hunters shoot for a shoulder shot to get a quick knockdown especially in heavily populated public grounds(to avoid tracking/losing deer to another hunter). IMO.....a 40 grain bullet out of a 22 Hornet more times than not would not will penetrate enuff for a clean kill. Of course....a double lung would do the job but many rifle hunters go for the shoulder. Won't even get into angling shots needing additional penetration to reach vitals where the 22 hornet would fall even further short in an ethical kill vs say a 30-06. Such calibers are best suited for groundhogs varmints etc.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 17:58:04 GMT -5
You don't take running shots so you shouldn't even be offering your 2 cents. You don't know what it takes to anchor running game Actually, I do. "Anchoring game" is about where the shot hits. Recovering game is about what is done after the shot. Not sure how many deer I have killed with a rifle. Everything from 22/250 to 300 Win mag to 45/70. I have even killed a few on the run in my younger days. Tracked quite a few after they were hit on the run. Only lost one I believe. As I said, focusing on shot selection and better decisions on recovery will do more that firepower when it comes to success on deer sized game. This isn't pass shooting with a shotgun relying on a pellet in the pattern to hit a vital or break a wing. This is precision shooting with one projectile.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 18:03:01 GMT -5
A lot of rifle hunters shoot for a shoulder shot to get a quick knockdown especially in heavily populated public grounds(to avoid tracking/losing deer to another hunter). IMO.....a 40 grain bullet out of a 22 Hornet more times than not would not will penetrate enuff for a clean kill. Of course....a double lung would do the job but many rifle hunters go for the shoulder. Won't even get into angling shots needing additional penetration to reach vitals where the 22 hornet would fall even further short in an ethical kill vs say a 30-06. Such calibers are best suited for groundhogs varmints etc. Which is why I said I was speaking in general terms. You are correct when talking about some of the legal but marginal calibers out there that require very precise shot placement avoiding bones and such. Generally speaking, if someone is losing deer that are hit with 243, 30/30 and other like calibers, the problem lies not in the caliber chosen but in either the shot placement or recovery strategies.
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Post by Loggy on Mar 10, 2024 18:08:22 GMT -5
You don't take running shots so you shouldn't even be offering your 2 cents. You don't know what it takes to anchor running game Actually, I do. "Anchoring game" is about where the shot hits. Recovering game is about what is done after the shot. Not sure how many deer I have killed with a rifle. Everything from 22/250 to 300 Win mag to 45/70. I have even killed a few on the run in my younger days. Tracked quite a few after they were hit on the run. Only lost one I believe. As I said, focusing on shot selection and better decisions on recovery will do more that firepower when it comes to success on deer sized game. This isn't pass shooting with a shotgun relying on a pellet in the pattern to hit a vital or break a wing. This is precision shooting with one projectile. I would agree with you Ridge if there was not a thing call FOOT POUNDS OF ENERGY in the ballistic world & the accompanying traumatic killing effect. In your archery world.....such isn't a factor but in rifle hunting it's a major factor. Going back to your original post....caliber choice can be an important thing to consider as to increasing chances of filling your tag contrary to your belief.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 18:31:22 GMT -5
I would agree with you Ridge if there was not a thing call FOOT POUNDS OF ENERGY in the ballistic world & the accompanying traumatic killing effect. Again, that is why I said generally and I agreed with you a few posts up about marginal calibers. Hydrostatic shock is very important but doesn't override shot placement. I wasn't speaking from my "archery world". I am a deer hunter with many kills with with many different weapon types. Many, many with rifles. Going back to my original post, that is not my "belief". What I said is that shot placement and recovery strategies are more important than firepower when it comes to success. I agree with you that caliber choice is important. But when talking about 243, 30/30 etc... on deer sized game, if lost deer is a problem, other factors are the primary reason ,not the caliber. Do you believe that between a 243 and a 300 Winnie that if deer are being hit and not recovered, that the caliber played a larger role than where the deer are hit?
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Mar 10, 2024 18:37:46 GMT -5
My 2 cents worth. A 22 hornet isn't a deer cartridge. Yes you can kill one with it, but it's a standing deer and a head shot only. Knew a hunter that used one for doe, no meat was ever destroyed. A222 or a 22-250 will do the job if hit in the vitals, with no problem. I have killed deer with both. A 243 is a heck of a deer caliber, especially loaded with 100 gr bullets. I've lost track of the number I have harvested with it using a 100 gr bullet.' and a couple weren't good shot placement. But it's not what I want in the thick stuff. Any 25 caliber that I can think of is also very lethal, I know the 257 Roberts is one find deer getter. A 30-30 or 32 Win.Sp is a lot better in the thick stuff, especially with a flat or round nose bullet. But it's a 100 yard gun. A 7mm-08 or a 308, will do it all, especially the 308. It's good in brush with a heavy for caliber bullet, and will reach out there with a BTSP bullet. A 30-06 or large IMO, is over kill, when it comes to deer hunting, unless your shooting long range. But use what you like, what you shoot well, and have confidence in, and you will do well most of the time. Any caliber that hits only the guts or hams, is going to be a problem, usually at the lease a long and hard tracking, if you recover it at all. Shot placement is the key, Ive know some hunters that could hit deer running just as easily as most could hit standing. I've also know some that couldn't hit a barn door if they were inside shooting out, especially when using open iron sights. From age 10 to early teens I was one of them. No problem on paper, but come deer, I lust couldn't control my self enough to get down in those open sights. Peep sight cured that problem.🤣
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 18:40:03 GMT -5
Is there anybody here that believes that between a 243 and a 300 Winnie that if deer are being hit and not recovered, that the caliber played a larger role than where the deer are hit?
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 18:41:39 GMT -5
. Shot placement is the key, Ive know some hunters that could hit deer running just as easily as most could hit standing. I've also know some that couldn't hit a barn door if the were inside shooting out, especially when using open iron sights. Yes sir!
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Mar 10, 2024 19:04:57 GMT -5
Is there anybody here that believes that between a 243 and a 300 Winnie that if deer are being hit and not recovered, that the caliber played a larger role than where the deer are hit? Of course not, I would even go down as far as a 22 rim fire. One of if not the largest grizzle bears ever killed was killed with a 22 Long. As Dave said "You gotta sever the blood flow, or the nervous system". Anything else & you're looking at a trail follow. Doesn't matter if it with a gun, bow, atlatl, or a sling shot.
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 19:11:53 GMT -5
Well, that was my point yet I sure got some disagreeing with me, lol.........
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 19:20:14 GMT -5
I'm glad you hit every animal exactly where you want to. I was born into the deer drive community. And there was no tolerance for standers who were choosy about whether to shoot or not. I can remember deer lost by others using the 243 and even the 30-30. I never remember a deer we lost with the 7mm or 300 Win Mag which were popular with our guys. I can't remember one lost with the 30-06 either. Now as far as bear, I can recall them lost with almost every popular cartridge out there including the 7mm and 300 mag
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 19:40:52 GMT -5
I'm glad you hit every animal exactly where you want to. I didn't. I am pretty meticulous when it comes to recovering deer and the one thing Loggy had right in this thread is my "archery world" which I use when it comes to recovery. Patience pays off. When applied to rifle hit deer, the same principles apply. Give em time and you will find. Too many guys hit a deer with a rifle and start the track and keep tracking until they run out of sign. Waiting 8 hours or until the next day would result in a dead deer more times than not. I do remember another rifle hit deer I lost now. Both were in my early years and both were bad hits I believe that I tracked too soon.
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 19:51:39 GMT -5
Only ever remember hitting one deer with a rifle that I didn't find. That was with a 270
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Post by ridgecommander on Mar 10, 2024 19:54:11 GMT -5
Awesome!
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Post by moosemike on Mar 10, 2024 20:15:36 GMT -5
I never will understand that one either. It was a 50 yard standing shot and I had a rest. I had blood for a couple hundred yards. All I can guess is I got deflected and hit low
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