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Post by GlennD on Jan 18, 2022 8:40:03 GMT -5
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Post by fleroo on Jan 18, 2022 9:40:23 GMT -5
A clue may be to look at Dave's trailcam video post. LOL
I don't live in bear country. And I see way more doe without a fawn than otherwise. And yes, most doe I see that do have fawn, there is only 1. Super rare I see 3. Now I will say, per my observations of the local gals, many will have 2 early after birth, but rarely will both fawn make it 6 months or so.
I took a walk for lad boy yesterday on the last day of flint. I had 4 doe walk directly up to me in the snow. 3 were enormous. Cows I tell ya. 1 was this years fawn.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 18, 2022 9:44:17 GMT -5
And to add. If you think about that article objectively, if there was a tremendous problem here in PA, DPSM number would be in the tank. Also, harvest number of both gender, would be in drastic decline. Those numbers aren't proving that out ? So I don't see a huge recruitment issue in PA, no ?
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 18, 2022 9:46:27 GMT -5
I see more a more single fawns come fall than I used to. Doubles were the norm around here but not any longer.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 18, 2022 10:02:32 GMT -5
But our harvest numbers don't bear out the fact that Doe have been recruiting at 1 or less fawn per.... for any amount of time. I am seeing the same as you, but the harvest ESTIMATES are either completely flubbed up, or PA does not have a huge recruitment problem. It simply can't be both ways
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Post by robinpa on Jan 18, 2022 10:49:25 GMT -5
in my area very seldom see triplets and not as many twins as I used to see ,mostly single fawns now.
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Post by davet on Jan 18, 2022 12:29:51 GMT -5
I think that when coyotes figure out how to take down deer, that's gotta be one of their go-to dinner menu's. Sure, a coyote may get a good kick by a deer and end up dying.....but the rest of the pack is "eati'n good in the neighborhood.
Examination of coyote poop may tell them some information......but they aren't examining every poop pile out there.
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Post by dougl on Jan 18, 2022 12:32:52 GMT -5
Bad winters in poor habitat has a far worse impact on fawn recruitment than anything else.Twenty plus years ago,Pa was recruiting 1.1 fawns per doe.
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Post by dougl on Jan 18, 2022 12:33:58 GMT -5
I think that when coyotes figure out how to take down deer, that's gotta be one of their go-to dinner menu's. Sure, a coyote may get a good kick by a deer and end up dying.....but the rest of the pack is "eati'n good in the neighborhood. Examination of coyote poop may tell them some information......but they aren't examining every poop pile out there. Just because coyotes eat deer,doesn't mean they kill them all the time.
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Post by dougl on Jan 18, 2022 12:35:22 GMT -5
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Post by fleroo on Jan 18, 2022 13:21:40 GMT -5
Ollie North recruited a Fawn. Look where that got him.
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Post by davet on Jan 18, 2022 14:28:36 GMT -5
I think that when coyotes figure out how to take down deer, that's gotta be one of their go-to dinner menu's. Sure, a coyote may get a good kick by a deer and end up dying.....but the rest of the pack is "eati'n good in the neighborhood. Examination of coyote poop may tell them some information......but they aren't examining every poop pile out there. Just because coyotes eat deer,doesn't mean they kill them all the time. I got pics that say different.
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Jan 18, 2022 15:10:15 GMT -5
I was at my primary Doc's office this morning, spending more time with doctors lately than anyone, getting old sucks. Any way he's a hunter and said that he saw less fawns this year than any other year he could recall. Thinking back to this past summer, I saw less fawns going through the back yard too. If I remember correctly there were only 2 fawns amount the 5 or 6 deer that frequently when pass.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 18, 2022 16:28:06 GMT -5
Biologists don't listen to hunters....
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Jan 18, 2022 16:38:21 GMT -5
Biologists don't listen to hunters.... You need to hunt deeper and harder. 😁
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Post by fleroo on Jan 19, 2022 9:09:34 GMT -5
There's only one thing I care to do "deeper and harder".................. FISH ! I hunt next to 4-wheelers and trails.
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Jan 19, 2022 16:38:47 GMT -5
There's only one thing I care to do "deeper and harder".................. FISH ! I hunt next to 4-wheelers and trails. I have a feeling that next year my truck is going to be parked 25 yard from my deer stand when hunting here a home. I don't mind the 200 yard walk down over the hill from where I usually park, but the 200 yard walk back up at the end of the day , like me, has gotten old.🤣
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Post by fleroo on Jan 19, 2022 16:46:29 GMT -5
I'll bet. And you're old enough to be my much, much older brother. Sometimes having sons come in handy..... when they don't give you a heap of guff, and when you tell them to drag your deer.
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Post by CoureurDeBois on Jan 19, 2022 17:19:41 GMT -5
I'll bet. And you're old enough to be my much, much older brother. Sometimes having sons come in handy..... when they don't give you a heap of guff, and when you tell them to drag your deer. 👍👍 The last deer I had to drag was in 2008, my son has dragged everyone since. Except for two in that time period, he has also done the gutting.🤫🤣
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Post by GlennD on Jan 21, 2022 10:38:30 GMT -5
I think that when coyotes figure out how to take down deer, that's gotta be one of their go-to dinner menu's. Sure, a coyote may get a good kick by a deer and end up dying.....but the rest of the pack is "eati'n good in the neighborhood. Examination of coyote poop may tell them some information......but they aren't examining every poop pile out there. Just because coyotes eat deer,doesn't mean they kill them all the time. They don’t have to kill them all the time, only during the fawning season when they are easy targets. Yotes are very smart critters, they know the typical fawn hiding places, and they can cover many miles a day.. I think a lot more fawns are falling victim to yotes and bears than most think.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 21, 2022 10:45:36 GMT -5
I completely agree. And the link above, that includes a study on mortality, confirms just that. That Yotes take a high percentage of "cervids". Yet, every study the PGC does, it seems the percentage of Yote mortality is very low, and rodents are the greatest percentage by far. Perhaps PA has a kindler, gentler breed of Yote, that doesn't care to eat "our" cervids ?
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Post by dougl on Jan 21, 2022 11:24:17 GMT -5
Well,I actually know some of the students who captured and tracked the fawns in the first study.The books weren't cooked.Many of those students were studying at PSU in Dubois.
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Post by bowbum on Jan 21, 2022 12:15:38 GMT -5
And to add. If you think about that article objectively, if there was a tremendous problem here in PA, DPSM number would be in the tank. Also, harvest number of both gender, would be in drastic decline. Those numbers aren't proving that out ? So I don't see a huge recruitment issue in PA, no ? PA is not specifically mentioned, (except for predation comments), but the study is an overall look at the majority of states. “Whitetail Fawn Recruitment Is Declining at an Alarming Rate, and No One’s quite sure why. It was once common to see a whitetail doe with two or even three fawns in tow. Today, that’s no longer the case in many parts of whitetail country. Hunters and researchers are noticing fewer fawns in the woods, and fewer still are surviving to adulthood. It’s an alarming trend that has experts concerned.......... Almost every reporting state in the Southeast and Northeast has seen a major decline since 2000. Some states have nosedived." One thing I found interesting is that there is some implication/speculation that food plots could be contributors to fawn deaths. It seems the largest percentage of agriculture seeds are treated with some really bad stuff that warns; "not for consumption.". The article says farmers with equipment designed to ensure seeds are planted below the ground surface are probably not the problem as much as those who casually do food plots and don't use such equipment or simply broadcast and harrow those seeds, leaving many above the surface where vulnerable fawns feed on them??? Dunno but apparently there is a serious problem in most of white tail country.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 21, 2022 12:19:43 GMT -5
Well, that's what the article certainly alludes to. All I'm saying, is IF Pennsylvania had a major issue with fawn recruitment, our harvest numbers would bear that issue out. Either our harvest numbers are grossly inaccurate (I know, they're estimates), or we don't have a MAJOR issue here in PA. I can't see how it can go both ways ?
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Post by dougl on Jan 21, 2022 12:22:15 GMT -5
The only time I ever notice a recruitment issue is the year following an extrordinarily bad winter.
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