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Post by bowbum on Jan 21, 2022 12:53:25 GMT -5
Well, that's what the article certainly alludes to. All I'm saying, is IF Pennsylvania had a major issue with fawn recruitment, our harvest numbers would bear that issue out. Either our harvest numbers are grossly inaccurate (I know, they're estimates), or we don't have a MAJOR issue here in PA. I can't see how it can go both ways ? Yeah, the guestimate of harvest numbers may not reflect reality but I doubt it would be too terribly far off the mark. I Also wonder if the dpsm estimates are up to date? Haven't heard anything of any "in depth" studies recently like years ago when they did the infrared studies etc. As for predation from yotes, our coyote population has dropped off the edge. I used to get individuals and hunting clubs asking me to hunt yotes here and I always let them and they did good. But no one has asked to hunt in at least 6 years and we rarely hear - see yotes or find scat. Still lots of bears though.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 21, 2022 13:33:14 GMT -5
Funny how DPSM fell off the map. DPSM was THE hottest acronym in PA Deer Management 15-20 years ago. LOL
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Post by davet on Jan 21, 2022 13:50:15 GMT -5
Well...it's not like the doe are getting ignored by the bucks when the time comes. So....that part of the equation is easy to determine.
We've had an increasing rate of growth of coyote for the last 15 years or more. And in that same time period we've had the decline in fawns.
Huh.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 21, 2022 13:59:11 GMT -5
When the doe I see in the very early spring have 2 fawn, and I see the same doe not long after, towing 1 fawn or sometimes none, I do believe it is predation more than anything else. Completely anecdotal of course.
That said, I STILL don't know how our harvest numbers are as high as they are given those observations.
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Post by dougl on Jan 21, 2022 14:46:33 GMT -5
Well...it's not like the doe are getting ignored by the bucks when the time comes. So....that part of the equation is easy to determine. We've had an increasing rate of growth of coyote for the last 15 years or more. And in that same time period we've had the decline in fawns. Huh. Coyotes have expanded their range but I see no evidence of an increasing population in this part of the state.Based on the sign I see and reports from everyone I know who traps,we had more coyotes in these parts 15 years ago than we do today.
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Post by dougl on Jan 21, 2022 14:48:48 GMT -5
Cold wet springs are murder on fawns and turkey poults.
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Post by davet on Jan 21, 2022 16:44:32 GMT -5
Well...it's not like the doe are getting ignored by the bucks when the time comes. So....that part of the equation is easy to determine. We've had an increasing rate of growth of coyote for the last 15 years or more. And in that same time period we've had the decline in fawns. Huh. Coyotes have expanded their range but I see no evidence of an increasing population in this part of the state.Based on the sign I see and reports from everyone I know who traps,we had more coyotes in these parts 15 years ago than we do today. If coyotes are expanding their range, that means more coyotes in more areas. More coyote, less fawn. While you say coyote population has decreased, not around these parts.
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Post by bowbum on Jan 21, 2022 17:10:35 GMT -5
Coyotes have expanded their range but I see no evidence of an increasing population in this part of the state.Based on the sign I see and reports from everyone I know who traps,we had more coyotes in these parts 15 years ago than we do today. If coyotes are expanding their range, that means more coyotes in more areas. More coyote, less fawn. While you say coyote population has decreased, not around these parts. I don't know about your area Dave but the old coyote hunters around here have hung up their little waggly rabbit decoys for lack of yotes. I hear the same thing from my buddy in the N.W. part of the state and others. I do believe, but can't remember reading that coyote populations were also in decline? Heck we see road kill deer unmolested along the road until they rot where it used to be they were hind-ended in less than 24 hours.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 21, 2022 17:47:35 GMT -5
Half of all fawn predation was from bears.
Considering we have only 20,000 bears and sometimes like 250,000 coyotes, which is the more EFFICIENT predator?
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Post by davet on Jan 21, 2022 20:53:44 GMT -5
Less coyotes, less bears, less fawns…..yeah…it all makes sense.
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Post by dennyf on Jan 22, 2022 12:22:37 GMT -5
Biologists don't listen to hunters....
That's because too many hunters are full of it, when it comes to understanding game management. No issues with fawn recruitment where I hunt in 3A That's why local herd numbers there keep growing. Still plenty of doe around w/twins each spring. The three doe we saw regularly around camp last year: two with twins, one with a single. As for triplets, we've had one doe at our gun club that's popped triplets for at least four years in a row. Often see those fawns, finally got an eye on momma two years ago. Amazed me how small the doe was.
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Post by bowbum on Jan 22, 2022 14:05:14 GMT -5
Less coyotes, less bears, less fawns…..yeah…it all makes sense. Yes, it very well could if you consider the possibilities, such as; chemical use on seeds. No doubt bears and coyotes have a serious impact but I think we need to think outside the "big bad coyotes did it" box and look at the entire spectrum of influences.
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Post by davet on Jan 23, 2022 7:56:28 GMT -5
Less coyotes, less bears, less fawns…..yeah…it all makes sense. Yes, it very well could if you consider the possibilities, such as; chemical use on seeds. No doubt bears and coyotes have a serious impact but I think we need to think outside the "big bad coyotes did it" box and look at the entire spectrum of influences. That may be true.....but I like to think it's just the big bad coyote so I can keep trying to get another!
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Post by bowbum on Jan 23, 2022 8:37:12 GMT -5
Yes, it very well could if you consider the possibilities, such as; chemical use on seeds. No doubt bears and coyotes have a serious impact but I think we need to think outside the "big bad coyotes did it" box and look at the entire spectrum of influences. That may be true.....but I like to think it's just the big bad coyote so I can keep trying to get another! Shoot em when you see em is my motto. I killed 6 here in a two year period. I get pics of maybe a couple per year on 12 trail cams I have out but they have become rare. One that I shot was from the kitchen window at mid day. I can't remember who it was but someone, on Dave Wolf's forum, excoriated me for my lack of hunting ethics in doing so. If that guy saw all the starlings and English sparrows that I shoot from the house he would cry for months..........
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Post by dennyf on Jan 23, 2022 10:45:31 GMT -5
That was our old bro, Bob. C. I think? I may have even added to the joy on the legendary window kill? I've yet to kill a song dog. Haven't even seen one at camp in several years, although I hear 'em each spring and early summer, way across the valley. Some years ago my cousin's son was growling about all the 'yotes on his trail cams. Not so much the past few years. Then it was too many bears on those cams. Meantime, the deer numbers continue to expand around there.
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Post by bowbum on Jan 23, 2022 10:48:31 GMT -5
That was our old bro, Bob. C. I think? I may have even added to the joy on the legendary window kill? I've yet to kill a song dog. Haven't even seen one at camp in several years, although I hear 'em each spring and early summer, way across the valley. Some years ago my cousin's son was growling about all the 'yotes on his trail cams. Not so much the past few years. Then it was too many bears on those cams. Meantime, the deer numbers continue to expand around there. Maybe Bob C??? I do recall you came to my defense ....or did you stir the pot?
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Post by dennyf on Jan 23, 2022 11:07:16 GMT -5
Me stir the pot? Surely you jest.
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Post by bowbum on Jan 23, 2022 11:29:43 GMT -5
Me stir the pot? Surely you jest. Nah, of course not!
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Post by davet on Jan 23, 2022 13:57:31 GMT -5
That may be true.....but I like to think it's just the big bad coyote so I can keep trying to get another! Shoot em when you see em is my motto. I killed 6 here in a two year period. I get pics of maybe a couple per year on 12 trail cams I have out but they have become rare. One that I shot was from the kitchen window at mid day. I can't remember who it was but someone, on Dave Wolf's forum, excoriated me for my lack of hunting ethics in doing so. If that guy saw all the starlings and English sparrows that I shoot from the house he would cry for months.......... Lack of hunting ethics? So...if you were in a tree stand out back THAT would have made a difference? Pretzel logic there.....shoot 'em when you can...from where you can.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 23, 2022 20:06:44 GMT -5
That was our old bro, Bob. C. I think? I may have even added to the joy on the legendary window kill? I've yet to kill a song dog. Haven't even seen one at camp in several years, although I hear 'em each spring and early summer, way across the valley. Some years ago my cousin's son was growling about all the 'yotes on his trail cams. Not so much the past few years. Then it was too many bears on those cams. Meantime, the deer numbers continue to expand around there. We heard them when hunting your place. Kate, said, What was that?
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Post by davet on Jan 24, 2022 7:09:27 GMT -5
Window kill story. My cousin Bob, who is a barrel chested big guy and as thoughtful and kind as anyone on this planet, lives on his own ten plus acres in a very nice home. He has an all glass room that looks over the valley where he's located and has just a beautiful view of the landscape and the changing seasons make it very nice to sit in. Several years ago he had a big groundhog dig a BIG hole in the middle of his back yard.....about 20 or so yards away from his "window room". Now Bob is a good shot and a pretty good hunter. He had tried to kill this big hog but the hog was so careful that when it heard a window open just a tiny bit, he would run to the hole. If Bob attempted to sneak around the corner of the house.....that hog was so attuned to watching movement at the corners, he would escape to his hole. Bob even fired up his backhoe and filled in and flattened out the hole, only for the hog to un-dig and rebuild it. Bob came home from work on day to find the big hog sitting atop the 2-3' mound of dirt. His wife was out and he had finally had it. He went to his gun safe and came out with his 30-06, loaded one shell, stood in the middle of his glass room, aimed and fired one shot through the glass and the groundhog was no more. Bob then went to obtain his broom, shop vac, and garbage can to clean up the glass. Measured the glass frame, went to the hardware store and obtained a replacement piece of glass and he installed it. When his wife came home she noticed how clean the glass room was. Now, Bob's a good enough guy but room cleaning was not one of his top priorities. So, upon her "continuous" asking of what happen he finally spilled the beans of what he did. She then ask him if he would shoot through other house windows as there were many other rooms that could use a good cleaning. Bob just said no. One trophy hog was enough.
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Post by moosemike on Jan 24, 2022 8:44:00 GMT -5
Window kill story. My cousin Bob, who is a barrel chested big guy and as thoughtful and kind as anyone on this planet, lives on his own ten plus acres in a very nice home. He has an all glass room that looks over the valley where he's located and has just a beautiful view of the landscape and the changing seasons make it very nice to sit in. Several years ago he had a big groundhog dig a BIG hole in the middle of his back yard.....about 20 or so yards away from his "window room". Now Bob is a good shot and a pretty good hunter. He had tried to kill this big hog but the hog was so careful that when it heard a window open just a tiny bit, he would run to the hole. If Bob attempted to sneak around the corner of the house.....that hog was so attuned to watching movement at the corners, he would escape to his hole. Bob even fired up his backhoe and filled in and flattened out the hole, only for the hog to un-dig and rebuild it. Bob came home from work on day to find the big hog sitting atop the 2-3' mound of dirt. His wife was out and he had finally had it. He went to his gun safe and came out with his 30-06, loaded one shell, stood in the middle of his glass room, aimed and fired one shot through the glass and the groundhog was no more. Bob then went to obtain his broom, shop vac, and garbage can to clean up the glass. Measured the glass frame, went to the hardware store and obtained a replacement piece of glass and he installed it. When his wife came home she noticed how clean the glass room was. Now, Bob's a good enough guy but room cleaning was not one of his top priorities. So, upon her "continuous" asking of what happen he finally spilled the beans of what he did. She then ask him if he would shoot through other house windows as there were many other rooms that could use a good cleaning. Bob just said no. One trophy hog was enough. This made me happy
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Post by fleroo on Jan 24, 2022 9:42:13 GMT -5
I call a heavy dose of malarkey on that story.
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Post by fleroo on Jan 24, 2022 9:57:22 GMT -5
Kinda thread related. I was in my basement Saturday. Looked across the hill, and here comes a momma and 2 fawn running from right to left. They stop directly in front of me, approximately 125 yards away I'd say ? Momma is looking back for about 10 seconds, then bolt off again. 20 seconds after that, here comes a Yote. It too hit directly across from me, and actually stopped and doubled back about 15 yards to pick up their scent again. It did, and off it went on the chase again. This yote was small. I know they "hamstring" deer, but those deer would basically have to lay down, exhausted, and succumb in order for the yote to win that chase. Well, I loaded up, grabbed a glass of wine, pulled up a chair, and waited for the return trip. 4 wines later....... never happened. But, turned out to be the best hunt since Morel season.
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Post by davet on Jan 24, 2022 11:54:51 GMT -5
I call a heavy dose of malarkey on that story. No. Not so!! You gotta meet Bob to fully understand how true this story is. He's a down to earth common sense kind of fellow......that get's fed up sometimes with some things.
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