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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 10:15:50 GMT -5
That's exactly what happens.I don't buy that crap about your supporting the anti's unless you support every single thing people want,regardless of how ridiculous it it.Dumbing down hunting by making every thing as easy as possible hurts hunting way more than the anti-hunting wack jobs.I have real life experience with this and nobody listens to them.
When I was on that committee,there was a woman board member that sat in on most of our meetings.She was from NJ and while not an anti-hunter,she was opposed to hunting there because of a bunch of misguided fears and concerns.I give her credit because she did have an open mind and as she learned more,she started to support our cause and was ultimately a big reason why it passed.At one point,she was actually afraid of wounded deer running around in a fit of rage attacking people.Some of these people just don't have a clue but you can't alienate them by just doing whatever you want.She was concerned about dead deer being hauled around on people's vehicles.All of these concerns were crazy to us but they had to be addressed.We made a rule that you had to at least cover a deer with a tarp when transporting it.Personally I think that's stupid but we didn't show that we were concerned about the feelings of non-hunters,it wouldn't have passed.As a result,hunters have killed boatloads of deer without any problems and they're actually looked at highly.Now if the sportsmen club in there would start trapping nuisance starlings and having a shoot,there would be a problem.It's all about perception when it comes to non-hunters and it does our cause no good to alienate them.
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 27, 2013 10:16:48 GMT -5
Gene,if someone wants to shoot a pigeon flying out of a cvage for a thrill or shoot a ram or pig in a small fence,that's not hunting.It's a bad joke that portrays hunters and mindless idiots,even though it has absolutely nothing to with hunting. . I agree. Personally, I have never said either was what I envision as hunting. That is if we are talking very small fenced operations of true canned hunts. All I have said is call it for what it is. The target of the antis is not the pigeon shoots or true canned hunts. The target is other put and take ventures and all high fenced operations. This is just a step towards that. Then onto another. It will be much easier for them with hunters supporting their cause.
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 27, 2013 10:23:32 GMT -5
I have heard recently that if I oppose baiting I am helping the anti's. Or did they say oppose what you wish in a way that does not slight or demean those that participate in the activities that your wish to see curtailed? Calling other hunters lazy or playing the easy card, helps the antis to build their case that hunting is a blood sport and not about the hunt. When it comes from hunters, it carries more weight.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 10:32:53 GMT -5
Gene,if someone wants to shoot a pigeon flying out of a cvage for a thrill or shoot a ram or pig in a small fence,that's not hunting.It's a bad joke that portrays hunters and mindless idiots,even though it has absolutely nothing to with hunting. . I agree. Personally, I have never said either was what I envision as hunting. That is if we are talking very small fenced operations of true canned hunts. All I have said is call it for what it is. The target of the antis is not the pigeon shoots or true canned hunts. The target is other put and take ventures and all high fenced operations. This is just a step towards that. Then onto another. It will be much easier for them with hunters supporting their cause. Sure,the anti's want to ban everything including using worms as bait but they need the support of the non-hunters.If hunters act with integrity,they'll never get that support.Hunters should distance themselves from pigeon shoots and canned shoots.I won't even call them hunts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 10:37:34 GMT -5
I look forward to having discussions with anti-hunters. It is fun to frustrate some pseudo intellectual if one can keep their cool and keep them engaged long enough for them to blow a gasket!
One of my favorite approaches is when they get to claiming the "not sporting thing" I ask them to explain what they would consider as sporting. Generally, (my niece), would start out saying there is no sport in any way and no cause to kill an animal.
Then I ask if she would condemn Indians for not becoming farmers but instead holding on to their hunting ways. She replied "no" Indians "were" sporting by nature of the challenges they face in hunting equipment and such.
I pointed out to her that Indian's methods included using dogs, running animals down using horses, herded wild game over cliffs, used bait, pushed game into box canyons never had any problem with ten or fifteen hunters on horseback surrounding and shooting game with bows or rifles in certain periods...... and did whatever they needed to do to provide for their tribe and families.
I almost got a "boo hoo" out of her , but instead she just walked away.
Truth is, it is "not supposed to be sporting" --- it is taking a life by the most efficient means. (these days --- most efficient means allowed by law)
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 10:45:17 GMT -5
I don't disagree with that bowbum but hunting today is about managing populations to a great extent and sport.It's not about gathering food,even though most eat what they shoot.I have no problems telling people that I hunt for sport,because I enjoy the challenge of the hunt.If it was just about the shot,it would be easier to shoot targets.It would be hard to argue how challenging it is to shoot any animal just left out of a cage.
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Post by TusseyMtman on Feb 27, 2013 11:21:55 GMT -5
I see bait the same as welfare. Somebody doesn't want to put in effort and work, they get welfare. Somebody doesn't want to put in effort and hunt, they get baiting. I don't identify with people on welfare and I don't identify with people who would bait a deer/bear/turkey in PA. I find it outright disgusting, actually. My brother used to feed deer in winter, something else that bugs me. I pestered him about it and he eventually stopped. I don't know if he stopped because of me or not. Seeing the general patterns in society of not putting in effort and wanting everything given to them spilling over into hunting really saddens me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 11:39:23 GMT -5
I wouldn't support the shoots either but since the anti's want them gone I am forced to side with pigeon shoots. I get thrills out of shooting deer and turkey and other animals. I really see no difference.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 11:57:27 GMT -5
Fair chase is the difference.I get a thrill out of the hunt.The kill is usually anti-climatic.I wouldn't get a thrill out of shooting a deer out the window of my truck or out my bathroom window either.Should we support roadhunting?It's a legal and excepted practice in some places.I would never support it.Does that make me an anti?
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Post by Dutch on Feb 27, 2013 11:59:44 GMT -5
Well, I'm picking up 5 chukars from a local farmer that raises them to sell up in Chinatown.
We are gonna use them to train the pup and then shoot them.
I could also just pull them out of the coop, pull off their heads, pull the breasts out and eat them.
Whats the diff how they die?
When I was young, we cut the heads off chickens, and shot hogs in the head.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 12:12:38 GMT -5
As dutch said beef and hogs get shot right where they have been raised until it's time to slaughter them. Pigeons need to be controlled as well they crap up everything below them.
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 27, 2013 12:28:02 GMT -5
I wouldn't get a thrill out of shooting a deer out the window of my truck or out my bathroom window either.Should we support roadhunting?It's a legal and excepted practice in some places.I would never support it.Does that make me an anti? No. Oppose in a manner that does not slight or degrade fellow hunters that particpate in those legal activities elsewhere. Attacking fellow hunters as a means of opposing a idea or initiative helps the antis. It doesn't make you a anti. A good dicussion assures the best possible outcome in most cases. All that I hope for is few casualities, which are largely un-necessary and harmful in today's world.
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 27, 2013 12:38:17 GMT -5
My brother used to feed deer in winter, something else that bugs me. I pestered him about it and he eventually stopped. I don't know if he stopped because of me or not. As a matter of clarification, I will assume you oppose the feeding of all wildlife? If the venison arrived on your porch via UPS like the funds magically show up on the govt card, I would agree with you. I suspect every one of us is guilty of taking advantage of technology and/or tactics to make the hunt easier. If you feel something makes it too easy for you, don't utilize it. Others may feel differently. Bottom line is we all still have to hunt and success is not guaranteed. Really the only place in Pennsylvania that I may support the use of bait would be the SRA. Sometimes it is tough to hunt these urban deer as thay can spend more time in yards than the woodlots as there is plenty to eat there. Including bird seed, landscaping and piles of corn.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 27, 2013 13:17:47 GMT -5
I can understand this comment Tussey, to a point. When my grandfather started deer hunting, it was with open sighted shotguns and open sighted rifles. When my Dad got his one and only rifle, it had a scope. Made things easier, right? We went from uninsulated boots, and wool garments, to 1200 grams thinsulate, and goretex. makes things easier, right? We have treestands we can attach to most any tree, anywhere, which sometimes, can make a HUGE difference in the area we can scan and creates a much larger "kill zone". Again, easier. Now, we have trail cams, crossbows, and all sorts of stuff, which makes things easier. Holy crap, I even forgot a deer cart, for $89 to get the gear, and the deer, outta the woods. BTW, when my dad started hunting in Tioga County in the late 40's, it was in Decmber, out of a tent. Two years later they built a camp. So, there has always been a progression of things to make it easier. Now, if you want to use a flinter in all gun seasons, and a hand made stik bow for the archery season, then, I might cut ya some slack and say you aren't making things easier. Anyway, not meant to offend, just a different perspective.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 13:40:24 GMT -5
Well, I'm picking up 5 chukars from a local farmer that raises them to sell up in Chinatown. We are gonna use them to train the pup and then shoot them. I could also just pull them out of the coop, pull off their heads, pull the breasts out and eat them. Whats the diff how they die? When I was young, we cut the heads off chickens, and shot hogs in the head. Easy,you wouldn't be pulling their heads off for a thrill.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 13:53:02 GMT -5
As dutch said beef and hogs get shot right where they have been raised until it's time to slaughter them. Pigeons need to be controlled as well they crap up everything below them. I kill every woodchuck I see on my property because they cause damage and pose a hazard to my horses.I don't hunt for them I kill them and I doubt many people would have a problem with that.However,if I live trapped all of them and had my buddies up for a live chuck shoot,how would that look?My one buddy has a farm and deals with pigeons every year.We shoot them.We don't trap them and get a cheap thrill out of letting them loose and killing them.Dead is dead but the way it's done makes a difference.I guess the difference is,some of us respect the game we hunt.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 13:56:15 GMT -5
I can understand this comment Tussey, to a point. When my grandfather started deer hunting, it was with open sighted shotguns and open sighted rifles. When my Dad got his one and only rifle, it had a scope. Made things easier, right? We went from uninsulated boots, and wool garments, to 1200 grams thinsulate, and goretex. makes things easier, right? We have treestands we can attach to most any tree, anywhere, which sometimes, can make a HUGE difference in the area we can scan and creates a much larger "kill zone". Again, easier. Now, we have trail cams, crossbows, and all sorts of stuff, which makes things easier. Holy crap, I even forgot a deer cart, for $89 to get the gear, and the deer, outta the woods. BTW, when my dad started hunting in Tioga County in the late 40's, it was in Decmber, out of a tent. Two years later they built a camp. So, there has always been a progression of things to make it easier. Now, if you want to use a flinter in all gun seasons, and a hand made stik bow for the archery season, then, I might cut ya some slack and say you aren't making things easier. Anyway, not meant to offend, just a different perspective. Not offended Dutch.We all use technology to varying degrees but there has to be a line.If Hanna sponsored a bill making road hunting legal,would you support it?I doubt you would so does that make you an anti?After all,it is legal and accepted in many places.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 27, 2013 14:57:34 GMT -5
I would say that road hunting is inherently dangerous. It is legal in Maine tho, from what my brother tells me.
Just because we weren't brought up on a certain set of rules, doesn't mean those who have, are wrong.
Many states allow baiting, many allow semi's. Are they wrong? Are we right?
Baiting of bears is an accepted form of hunting, but not here. Why?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2013 15:02:24 GMT -5
Baiting is a weird subject you buy 50 lb's of corn and throw it on a pile it's considered baiting, but if you sit by a corn field that has 5000 lb's of corn in it it's not. I really don't see the difference I wouldn't put corn out even if it was legal.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 15:06:35 GMT -5
Just because we weren't brought up on a certain set of rules, doesn't mean those who have, are wrong. See,that's where we'll have to agree to just disagree.Driving around looking for something to shoot isn't hunting in my book and never will be.Yes,I absolutely,positively look down on anyone that does it,legal or not.It actually makes me violently upset.A few years ago,I saw a guy pulled over in TL on the last day of flintlock season on a road that you and Cathy probably ski'd on.I knew what he was doing so I drove past and waited around the corner for a shot.As soon as I heard the shot I went back and confronted him.It looked like Cheech and Chong just got done smoking a bowl in his jeep with smoke bellowing out of the windows.I don't do well with mouthy people and he made the mistake of getting mouthy.Normally I would have just gave him a rash of crap and left but he ticked me off so I blocked him in and called our WCO who lives just down the road.He busted the guy and I testified against him in court.I have a huge amount of disdain for road hunters.I just saw that guy today and he didn't wave.Kinda made me sad.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 27, 2013 15:15:54 GMT -5
Yep, I'm good with my position.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 15:41:23 GMT -5
Baiting is a weird subject you buy 50 lb's of corn and throw it on a pile it's considered baiting, but if you sit by a corn field that has 5000 lb's of corn in it it's not. I really don't see the difference I wouldn't put corn out even if it was legal. If there's enough food for the deer,baiting is much less effective,However,it's extremely effective in areas of poor habitat or late in winter when there's not much else to eat.Around here,deer will come to the sound of a chainsaw with little fear because they're desperate.Throw a pile of corn down and you'll kill deer.I know a guy who kills a couple nice bucks a year on his tag and one of his kid's.He buys mollasses by the 55 gallon drum and dumps 5 gal at a time on rotten stumps covered with corn.Every year he kills big bucks.Yes,he's known to law enforcement but just tough to catch.
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Post by bawanajim on Feb 27, 2013 15:52:00 GMT -5
There is no need to ban pigeon shoots, as there is no need to have pigeon shoots, and the sooner they fade from site the better for hunters.
The fund raising aspect of them has always been the OK for many people to participate, certainly we can find a better solution to fund raising and save face in many non - hunters eyes.
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Post by dougell on Feb 27, 2013 15:59:04 GMT -5
That's the best and simplest way to put it.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 27, 2013 16:11:29 GMT -5
All I know is, if you put corn out at the bottom of the steps of a condo in Treasure Lake, you'll kill a deer, multiple deer. LOL
And you'd be doing those deer a favor by killing them!
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