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Post by greyphase on Oct 1, 2015 5:49:01 GMT -5
Got my Grouse and Woodcock Cooperators Newletter and it confirmed what I already knew. Grouse populations continue to plummet all across the state. In the southcentral region where I do most of my hunting last years flushes per hour was 0.34 down 21% from the year before and down 73% !!! from the long term average. West Nile Virus is being looked at as a possible cause. I have the habitat but it holds few birds so there is definitely something else wrong. Sadly at 62 years old I feel that I won't see an upturn in the grouse population in my hunting lifetime.
Thank God for the woodcock, who's numbers seem to be holding their own.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2015 5:57:52 GMT -5
We have not seen many grouse in the area of our camp in Somerset County for several years. Things don't look good for this year either. I wonder if avian flu or West Nile are at fault, why isn't this having an effect upon turkeys?
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 1, 2015 6:34:02 GMT -5
So why is the grouse season as long as it is? Some here claim that if a game population is trending down, reponsible management should dictate a significantly reduced season.
I have not seen a grouse in a few years now, where they used to be rather common.
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Post by fleroo on Oct 1, 2015 7:57:07 GMT -5
Pretty sure Turkey are, and have been, trending downward also the past x years. Too bad ALL birds don't nest off the ground. Would be a big help in predation.
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Post by GlennD on Oct 1, 2015 8:07:44 GMT -5
Pretty sure Turkey are, and have been, trending downward also the past x years. Too bad ALL birds don't nest off the ground. Would be a big help in predation. I think you make a good point. Predation is 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Having seen the food and cover around camp Rip n Tear there should be Grouse. ?
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Post by Dutch on Oct 1, 2015 9:22:45 GMT -5
The PGC greenies LOVE predators. It points to an "in balance" ecosystem. LOL
Isn't it funny, they keep telling us there is no habitat for grouse due to aging forests, but never point a finger at preds.
In the 50's and 60's, decent habitat, few preds, and guess what? Lots of game.
Grouse numbers have plummeted for us as well. Went from flushing a TON, and I mean, 15 at a time sometimes, to not one this summer.
We were told it isn't west nile, but now, they seem to be hedging their bets.
Typical, they know it all, and those that get in the woods don't know a thing.....
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Post by timberdoodle on Oct 1, 2015 9:40:12 GMT -5
Was running beagles day before yesterday and my friend told me he flushed a brood earlier in the week first one he has seen and I haven't seen a brood all summer...That was the first he saw all summer as well. Still getting a few single flushes from time to time but you're right... it is depressing. and I'm out of the bird dogging.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 1, 2015 10:08:15 GMT -5
Grouse numbers have plummeted for us as well. Went from flushing a TON, and I mean, 15 at a time sometimes, to not one this summer. Will cutting the season in half stop this trend?
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Post by fleroo on Oct 1, 2015 10:13:07 GMT -5
Grouse numbers have plummeted for us as well. Went from flushing a TON, and I mean, 15 at a time sometimes, to not one this summer. Will cutting the season in half stop this trend? No way. Seeins how most folks can't hit them anyway. If the problem is biological/environmental, cutting the season will only let a small minority carry over, delaying the inevitable. My .02
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Post by GlennD on Oct 1, 2015 10:25:24 GMT -5
I agree Fleroo... I don't think cutting the season, or even a moratorium on Grouse will help. Somethings else is going on with not only Grouse, but Quail and dare I say it.. Pheasants. I sometimes wonder if along with predation and habitat, is there some new witches brew of farm chemicals that is messing with the biology? I know I wonder here in Maryland what the farmers are using to grow corn and soybeans. Over and over and over in the same ground each year. The ground has to be depleted of naturally occurring minerals etc.. And, you rarely see a weed in the corn or beans. Plus, I don't recall ever picking up a tick while in the corn or beans. ?? You would think all these over educated biologists with more wall paper than JC Penny could figure out what the real factors are. But, I guess they are spending more time on studying global climate change and trying to figure out how they can get more research money than PA Grouse.
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Post by bawanajim on Oct 1, 2015 10:49:43 GMT -5
The lack of honey bees should scare the bejeezus out of all of you!
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Post by fleroo on Oct 1, 2015 12:53:25 GMT -5
It Do, It Do. As well as the lack of bats due to WNS. My hobby of sitting out on a summer eve, cocktail at the ready, and watching the bats go to work, is all but gone... hopefully, to return soon, or at least someday ?
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 1, 2015 12:55:41 GMT -5
No way. Seeins how most folks can't hit them anyway. If the problem is biological/environmental, cutting the season will only let a small minority carry over, delaying the inevitable. My .02 I agree. I mentioned the same thing while discussing our declining turkey populations which most signs point to factors other than hunting. Quite a few thought that reducing our turkey seasons was the responsible thing to do. The reasoning was any turkey killed by a hunters negatively effects a declining population, therefore the season should be reduced. We have two species in decline with most feeling that it is environmental. Yet, we reduce seasons on one and keep them extremely long on the other. Hmmmm......
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Post by bawanajim on Oct 1, 2015 13:22:59 GMT -5
It Do, It Do. As well as the lack of bats due to WNS. My hobby of sitting out on a summer eve, cocktail at the ready, and watching the bats go to work, is all but gone... hopefully, to return soon, or at least someday ? There is a great story in last months "Game News" about bats and their decline, the sad part is as they only reproduce one pup per year it will take over 200 years to restore the number of bats we had only a few short years ago. And that is if we can get the White nose disease under control that is killing so many of them. Sadly more people are concerned about their facebook status.
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Post by Dutch on Oct 1, 2015 14:54:21 GMT -5
We should be concerned about all the things that used to have good populations and now have significantly reduced populations.
I am not talking about grouse, deer, etc. I am talking about the building blocks of systems.
Frogs, mayflies, bass with both male and female parts, turtles in decline, moles/voles, butterflies, bees, etc.,you name it. Look around at what is in decline.
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Post by redarrow on Oct 1, 2015 15:11:28 GMT -5
I the old, overgrown strip mines I hunted as a teenager and young man, it was common most years to have several flushes over the course of a few hour hunt-up to twenty or more- Doubtless, many times the same bird was flushed more than once. The habitat has change from young aspens, scotch pine, and devils club thickets to mature pines and spruces. There are still a few grouse there most years but a couple flushes is now a pretty good hunt. BTW, these hunts are not with a dog.
Turkeys are much more abundant in the area now than ever. I have been told by more than one grouse hunter that turkeys will kill young grouse when they cross paths. I don't know that this is a fact, but from watching our free range chickens for many years, it would not surprise me that it's true.
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Post by redarrow on Oct 1, 2015 15:13:07 GMT -5
BTW, I certainly agree that we are losing much of the population of many native species. It should be a warning to us all. And unless we allow our feelings to be hurt by being called a "greenie" or "tree hugger", we should not be afraid to voice our concerns about the environment and health pf the planet.
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Post by bawanajim on Oct 1, 2015 15:27:22 GMT -5
If the "greenies" didn't ride around in clown cars they might get a bit of support, but much like the animal rights groups they are no more than an easy ride to a fat pay check for trust fund kids that think June bugs are just older Mayflies.
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Post by redarrow on Oct 1, 2015 15:52:35 GMT -5
Who said anything about what kind of cars people drive? We were talking about concern over the diminishing numbers in the populations of native wildlife. It has nothing to do with animal rights activists. And my sons not only know the difference between mayflies and june bugs, they know many of the names of the different mayflies, the dates they are likely to hatch, and how to tie patterns to match them when fishing over the hatches. They love to hunt, fish and trap, and have enough respect for the environment that they won't let the opinions of primitive thinkers bother them much.
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Post by gobblerhunter on Oct 2, 2015 4:56:39 GMT -5
I think they should cut the limit to one. I know that stinks for the killers but for now till they get their finger on whats going on that should happen. I really don't think cutting the season would do much. Hunters also shouldn't over harvest covers. No cover is a secret so if you are hunting it over and over so are others. Just my 2 cents
I still find most of the grouse where I find lots of food.
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Post by thunderflash44 on Nov 20, 2015 1:41:47 GMT -5
I was beginning to think I was the only one experiencing this, but its comforting to know that I'm not the only one noticing this. It has been horrible for quite some time, many years in a row, with the occasional rare covert that you flush 18 birds in 7 hours. This has only happened once in my lifetime and for some reasons, the birds are always concentrated in that one area. However this is not typical everywhere or in most cases so it doesn't really count in my opinion. I have walked ten to 15 miles in one direction finding many species of flora that ruffed grouse depend upon, and had not heard a single bird. This has been ninety percent of the time hunting in the northeast region of PA. It is absolutely pitiful. I do not believe the PGC is doing enough to create habitat, manage it and sustain it long enough to keep ruffed grouse in a healthy population. It is a shame! This is our State bird! Someone earlier commented also on turkeys, and to tell you the truth, I have seen also a HUGE decline in wild turkey sightings and I am sure we can all attest to the howling we hear at night from the ever-growing number of coywolves. I say coywolves here because that is what the eastern coyote is, it carries wolf's blood, pack hunts and takes down large game including mature bull elk and whitetail's. Finally PA can deny it no longer, they are not the scrawny western lone scavengers you see in the Nevada desert, they are bred and mixed with wolves. They kill just about anything. Also I read an article that while the wild turkey population was on the rise from 1997 to about 2012, PA was continuously "introducing new" turkeys and in 2012 the number finally plateaued and has since dropped significantly. There is a lot of stuff they don't tell us about our wildlife in my opinion. But in any case, they are doing nothing to help the ruffed grouse and then they write articles about how there are barely any small game hunters left. At the same time they do nothing to bring back the native population of the ruffed grouse and spend a RIDICULOUS amount of money on raising pheasants that you basically have to punt in the rear end to get them to flush, and even then they say only about 35% of all PA hunters actually even go pheasant hunting. What in the world is going on here?! Its getting very sad to see our bird slip down into such low numbers.
ThunderFlash44
"THUNDER!? FLASH! COME ON IN!"
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Post by Dutch on Nov 20, 2015 6:09:35 GMT -5
92,000 pheasant hunters
Turkey populations peaked about 2002 or so, and have continued to decline.
PGC DOES create grouse habitat.
Predation on nesting hens IS a problem.
There is a possibility that West Nile is effecting grouse numbers, so, doesn't matter how much habitat you have, they will decline, if that is a factor.
I had TONS of grouse where I hunt just 3 years ago, now, they have all but disappeared. I could flush 10-15 birds at a time, no lie. Now, they are gone.
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Depressing
Nov 20, 2015 11:42:18 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by thunderflash44 on Nov 20, 2015 11:42:18 GMT -5
Don't you think that this problem is jarring enough to scale back on the pheasant money and do a bit more to help out our state bird? Be reasonable, the PGC may as well just burn the money spent on pheasants because majority of all the pheasants the PGC is taking time to breed, raise, care for and releasebecause are being fed to coywolves and are not being taken by hunters for food. Why not invest the money into our native state bird? Why not find the reason for their disappearance from PA even with excellent habitat? And why only here? Maine has TONS of mosquitoes and grouse are maintaining growth in population as is MN and MI. PA is equally as wooded as any of the other states, yet the bird decline here is still a mystery? I also have yet to see any ruffed grouse habitat management plans in NEPA, SUSQUEHANNA, lackawanna, Wayne, Monroe, Wyoming and Bradford counties all had no current projects of maintaining grouse habitat or creating it. I called the regional office, they said no, there are none currently happening on any SGL WMU's 3C or 3D. Why? They sure didn't forget to release the pheasants to feed the coyotes and get hit by cars, but they sure forgot about ruffed grouse habitat. It is not fair to neither the grouse, nor the grouse hunters.
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Depressing
Nov 20, 2015 11:50:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by thunderflash44 on Nov 20, 2015 11:50:32 GMT -5
They also could not tell me of any record when there was a ruffed grouse habitat management action in any of our northeast counties. Also... why?
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Post by Dutch on Nov 20, 2015 13:55:05 GMT -5
Every time the PGC timbers, they create grouse habitat. Now, if there are no grouse in the area, even with habitat, you won't have grouse.
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