I hope you positive boys are right

[richg]

Quite a few of yinz fellers say the best is yet to come for our deer hunting.But the beech are diseased,cherry and maple are taking over our forests and in most clearcuts I'm seeing it's either cherry and or beech.I just read an article that stated the forests of the northeast aren't cutting near enough to support good grouse populations in the future.Now we have disease down in southern PA.I'm not seeing a reason for optimism.Are you guys seeing cuts that are producing oaks?I opened the canopy and got outstanding regen of oaks,sassafrass,multa flora rose,wildflowers,etc yet in state forest most places look like more cherry then anything.One clearcut I know of has great regen but it was a burn.

[Dutch]

My infamous pic that so many of you love, was in a timbercut that had incredible oak regen.

Nothing wrong with cherry. Its valuable for deer and turkey, etc.

[Dutch]

BTW, oak, IMO, is not a great wildlife species. Its not dependable in any way.

Now, if we can ever get the chestnuts back....... dependable producers.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2013 17:47:08 GMT -5 Dutch said:

My infamous pic that so many of you love, was in a timbercut that had incredible oak regen.

Nothing wrong with cherry. Its valuable for deer and turkey, etc.

;D That' funny right there!

[richg]

Not in our lifetimes Brad.Chestnut that is.

[TusseyMtman]

Fire had alot to do with today's oak forests. That, and almost 0 deer when they were getting started. Around here, history says the forest before the logging boom was mostly all white pine, hemlock, chestnut, and some oak. It was said the canopy was so dense it was always dark on the forest floor. Doesn't sound like good deer habitat.
Deer depend on humans for their habitat. They love forest disturbance and edge habitat created by humans.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2013 17:48:05 GMT -5 Dutch said:

BTW, oak, IMO, is not a great wildlife species. Its not dependable in any way.

Now, if we can ever get the chestnuts back....... dependable producers.

Oak is great for wildlife. What would they eat if we didn't have oak? Those Red and Back Oak acorns get them through the winter. And yes there are always acorns of some variety in the woods.

[Deleted]

Mar 20, 2013 20:01:31 GMT -5 TusseyMtman said:

Fire had alot to do with today's oak forests. That, and almost 0 deer when they were getting started. Around here, history says the forest before the logging boom was mostly all white pine, hemlock, chestnut, and some oak. It was said the canopy was so dense it was always dark on the forest floor. Doesn't sound like good deer habitat.
Deer depend on humans for their habitat. They love forest disturbance and edge habitat created by humans.

I've read in PA Game News that before the logging PA was mostly conifers with some Chestnut mixed in. They said it really wasn't hardwood forests here but that's the way it grew back up to be.

[Dutch]

According to a PGC forester, 1 in 4 trees were chestnuts. That was a huge loss to wildlife when we lost the chestnuts.

[Deleted]

Mar 22, 2013 10:21:33 GMT -5 Dutch said:

According to a PGC forester, 1 in 4 trees were chestnuts. That was a huge loss to wildlife when we lost the chestnuts.

I knew it was a huge loss, but I didn't realize 1/4 of our trees were chestnuts.

[Dutch]

Yep. It was one of the things that helped the Passenger Pigeons survive. When we cut the forest, it led to the decline of the pigeon, and all sorts of things. Then the blight finished the chestnuts.

[Deleted]

Two links for you, Mike. Lots of information in them.

The American Chestnut Foundation
www.acf.org/index.php

The Pennsylvania Chapter of TACF
www.patacf.org/

I can remember when I was quite young, my father taking me to the mountain outside of Mount Holly Springs to a camp to which he belonged. There was a chestnut tree there, and we picked up a bag full of nuts from it. A couple of years later it died. I think it was the last one in the area. By the mid 1940s they were all gone and the mountains were littered with the downed trees.

Back when I was climbing phone poles for a summer job I climbed a few chestnut poles.

[wentzler]

Bunch of you in here, might REALLY enjoy reading the book, "1491". I'm guessing there are more than a few would find a very interesting perspective of some evidence leads to a 'slight' correction in both how we look at the history of 'forest management'...and....hence...'wildlife management.' It is without doubt, one of the two or three most thought provoking books I've read in the last ten years. Both times:)

[Deleted]

"Quite a few of yinz fellers say the best is yet to come for our deer hunting."

I would be one of them fellers, Rich. ;D Actually, I like the hunting we have now better than what we had in the three decades before the dawn of this century. Maybe it is because I am getting old and senile? What I like is that the deer I am harvesting (actually, I kill them) are bigger and are rolling fat. I can remember the first buck I shot in the Quehanna tract back in 1968. It weighed 81 pounds and was 2.5 years old. The 2.5 year old buck my buddy Larry shot this year weighed over 160 pounds and had a nice eight point rack. While it is true that such bucks did exist in 1980, they were quite rare. This is actually the biggest buck Larry has ever taken.


I do not see unhealthy forests where I hunt in southern Somerset County. To the contrary, the forests have recovered quite nicely and one of the biggest gripes I hear is that you have so much underbrush you can't see very far. It makes hunting a bit harder. We have not had a good mast crop in three years now. Maybe this year the oaks and beeches will bear nuts. What that does to us is that the bears are found where the nuts are, especially white oak acorns, and when we don't have white oak acorns we have to go find them to hunt bears. The deer manage pretty well on browse and on agricultural crops in the area, which are pretty consistant.

Maybe the best is not yet to come, Rich, but what we have where we hunt is getting better every year. I don't know what the situation is where you hunt, but obviously it can't get a lot worse, can it?

[dougell]

I personally see it getting better every year.

[wentzler]

Bunch of you in here, might REALLY enjoy reading the book, "1491". I'm guessing there are more than a few would find a very interesting perspective of some evidence leads to a 'slight' correction in both how we look at the history of 'forest management'...and....hence...'wildlife management.' It is without doubt, one of the two or three most thought provoking books I've read in the last ten years. Both times:)

[richg]

Mar 22, 2013 11:17:01 GMT -5 dougell said:

I personally see it getting better every year.

How so Doug?Do you feel the cutting is going to keep up with pole and old growth?Do you feel when they do timber there we be good regen for browse and future mast?

Mutt,we've done pretty good in recent years too.I suppose it's more of the future that bothers me.

[dougell]

I think as long as the herd isn't allowed to increase too much,the clearcuts will do just fine,which will benefit everyone,including the deer.

I generally don't see loads of deer when I hunt Rich.The most I saw this year was 9 in a day and had some days with 2 sighted.When I get together with a buddy or two and we get them moving,we see a lot more,so I know they're there.Hunting is different today.There's less deer but more food for the ones that are there.They bed most of the day because they don't have to search for food and nobody is moving them.Almost every deer I kill with a rifle is by still hunting.The opportunities are practically endless and the bucks are way bigger on average than they used to be.We have thousands of acres of public land within a very short drive so I don't see anything to complain about.I'm finding decent grouse numbers in places and turkeys are everywhere.

[Deleted]

I can't help it, I just gotta do this!
As Muttley recounted, I also remember the days of a 40-inch, 85lb, 6 pt being considered a "good buck." Most normal expectations at the time were on spikes and forkies.

A while back there was a discussion here about crossbows and in the exchanges Kathy, "gal" acknowledged a comment I made, (long since forgot), and then asked the question of me; Yes but are you ethical?"
I don't remember the particular reason that came up but, by coincidence, just a few days prior I had been showing pictures of big bucks I see in the yard, --- many seen during hunting seasons.
A non-hunting relative proclaimed --- 'my dad or brother would have dropped them on site --- season or no season."

The discussion went to "ethics" and I got a strong feeling that at least two at the gathering would most likely have dumped the bigger bucks and taken their chances.

The "quality" of those bucks was what was mentioned most as a "once in a lifetime buck" excuse. I think we realize if a 160 buck will temp you, a 150 or 140 will also temp you at some time.

I suppose having hunted whitetails over much of North America, and with some notable nationally recognized hunters, has helped me to abide by guidelines and reasoning that puts meaning on doing things in acceptably legal ways.

I'll post some pictures of bucks that "I DID NOT" get. They are good ones.
Perhaps already having some good bucks on the wall makes it easier to be happy photographing these guys while hoping to draw my bow on them under hunting circumstances.

From this past season -- with no word on anyone killing any of these bucks: (incidentally, we saw this guy after all seasons ended)

Keep in mind I'm here all day everyday and have a perfect security set up for deer.













Now - bucks prior to 2012:
This one hit by a neighbors hunters but not recovered.


high 9
img.photobucket.com/albums/v718/bowbum/deer/2011082401-9point.jpg
[/img]

Killed by a neighbors wife --- gun season:


Killed by a neighbor -- shown in next pic.




Also killed by a neighbor an older brother to the buck above?:


Never heard about anyone getting this guy:


At least three of those guys are bigger than anything I've ever killed.
But, to answer the "positive thinking" question --- Hell yes it is better and getting better.

[biggriz]

I agree that it is getting better. Up at our camp was pretty scarce for a few years but is now rebounding. I shot a buck and two does before rifle season this year and had to work on opening day. My best friend and his son were the only ones at camp. The first two deer they saw were about an 18" 8 point and an "over 20" biggest buck I've seen on the hoof in PA" of an undetermined number of points. Also saw a few does. They didn't get "overrun" with deer, but the ones they saw were quality individuals. They both shot bucks in archery season and only had DMAP permits. Didn't shoot any of the does but could have. Wish I could have been there.

[Deleted]

There are some monsters bowbum!

[Deleted]

They certainly are some decent bucks and that is just a sampling as seen from my kitchen window!

I'm lucky in that I am here every day to take advantage of photo ops that most people would not normally see.

Plus our fields, (clover and fescue mixed with other native grasses), are surrounded by heavy wooded cover, bordered with swamps - thickets and there is not another house or road in sight.
In short, it is a perfect undisturbed, secluded area that also provides decent grazing and lots of browse. Gas wells and pipelines may change that in time but the deer won't go far, they'll adjust.

I met with an excavating contractor this morning who lives about 2-1/2 miles away --- (bordering gamelands). He was telling me he saw 3 bucks last fall that would pass the 145 mark and "a ton" of others that were 8 points or better --- all coming out of gamelands to feed in his alfalfa!

I think, in many cases, the bucks are there. In others, maybe not, but overall the deer situation has never been as good as it is right now.

Truth be told, I've seen more bucks this past year than I have hunters!

[Deleted]

Mar 22, 2013 10:37:28 GMT -5 @muttleysgone said:

Two links for you, Mike. Lots of information in them.

The American Chestnut Foundation
www.acf.org/index.php

The Pennsylvania Chapter of TACF
www.patacf.org/

I can remember when I was quite young, my father taking me to the mountain outside of Mount Holly Springs to a camp to which he belonged. There was a chestnut tree there, and we picked up a bag full of nuts from it. A couple of years later it died. I think it was the last one in the area. By the mid 1940s they were all gone and the mountains were littered with the downed trees.

Back when I was climbing phone poles for a summer job I climbed a few chestnut poles.

Thanks for the links. I'm glad something is being done to bring them back but unfortunately we'll never see it in our lifetimes.

[Deleted]

I have been planting a few with not so great results, Mike. My thought is that if we don't do something to help the chestnut recover it would maybe never happen. I keep planning for a future that doesn't include me being there, but maybe my grandkids will see a return of the great trees, or maybe their grandkids.

A few years ago, some of us who post here went on a habitat tour at Lake Raystown. They have an orchard there in which some of the trees are now producing nuts. I have hope.

[Deleted]

My hat is off to you. Not many people will toil if they have no chance of ever enjoying the fruits of their labors themselves.