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Post by melody on Jun 21, 2016 20:54:23 GMT -5
HCO3341 By Christiana. Directs DGS with DCNR to establish a minimum of four golf courses (north, south, east and west regions) located within four of Pennsylvania's 121 state parks, which encompass over 200,000 acres of land.
* June 15, 2016 02:53 PM
* Rep. Jim Christiana
* A Public-Private Partnership Honoring a Pennsylvania Golf Legend
* Arnold Palmer is a distinguished Pennsylvania native, international
* golf legend, celebrated aviator, renowned spokesman, compassionate
* philanthropist and highly-successful entrepreneur.
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* Often regarded as one of the greatest players in professional golf
* history, his legacy goes far beyond the course. In addition to his
* athletic record, he was fundamental to the creation of the Arnold
* Palmer Hospital for Children and omen and the Arnold Palmer Medical
* Center. He remains a tireless advocate and supporter of programs
* supporting cancer research, as well as many other charitable
* organizations. Mr. Palmer was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom
* in 2004 and the Congressional Gold Medal in 2009.
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* In honor of Mr. Palmer's significant contributions to golf,
* Pennsylvania communities and the Commonwealth's economy, we plan to
* introduce legislation establishing the Palmer Trails Act.
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* Under the bill, the Pennsylvania Department of General Services, in
* consultation with the Department of the Conservation and Natural
* Resources, would be directed to establish a minimum of four golf
* courses (north, south, east and west regions) located within four of
* Pennsylvania's 121 state parks, which encompass over 200,000 acres of
* land.
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* The department would be required to call for request for proposals
* within six months of the bill being signed into law for the design,
* construction and management of the courses, which must be consistent
* with Mr. Palmer's course design philosophy.
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* In addition to honoring an individual who has had a global impact on
* the sport of golf, this public-private partnership would help to
* diversify and encourage avid use of our state parks, increase tourism
* to the Commonwealth and highlight a key figure in Pennsylvania's
* history.
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Post by Dutch on Jun 21, 2016 21:09:27 GMT -5
Why should the state compete with private businesses?
Idiots.
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Post by davet on Jun 22, 2016 7:01:03 GMT -5
Well.....let's see.....it will cost at a minimum $1.5-million each to build a golf course. That's not including land cost. In addition to that, in today's market, golf courses are crying.....weeping...and several are dying (as in turning into large weed patches) because the sport of golf is in the downslide. The younger generation is not willing to spend the time it takes to become a "good" player. (Play 3 times a week which invest an average of 6 hours for 18 holes at a minimum) and thus, golf courses that sprang up in the late 1990's and early 2000's with heavy debt are "Trump-ruptcy" filing. Older private clubs cannot find younger members to come in and pay the fees and spend the time and money, thus are becoming large tracts of weed patches.
Another fine investment you've gotten us into!! Pass the wine.
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Post by bawanajim on Jun 22, 2016 7:27:36 GMT -5
Why didn't some one smack this guy upside the head!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2016 8:23:07 GMT -5
What a wonderful way to reduce state government spending. NOT!
I object to my tax money being spent to compete with private enterprise.
Don't care how wonderful Arnold Palmer was.
Well, OK. If the legiscritters cut their own budget by 12 million, I could ok spending six million for more state park development, but forget about golf courses. Fergeddaboudit.
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Post by davet on Jun 22, 2016 9:12:08 GMT -5
Why didn't some one smack this guy upside the head! My best guess would be a cruelty to animal charge. |
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Post by bawanajim on Jun 22, 2016 9:44:15 GMT -5
Why didn't some one smack this guy upside the head! My best guess would be a cruelty to animal charge. But you are allowed to kill fish, that could apply. And even on Sundays! |
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Post by davet on Jun 22, 2016 10:55:50 GMT -5
My best guess would be a cruelty to animal charge. But you are allowed to kill fish, that could apply. And even on Sundays! Yes. But remember....fish are cold blooded. So......wait.....nevermind...... |
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Post by Dutch on Jun 22, 2016 11:30:14 GMT -5
Well.....let's see.....it will cost at a minimum $1.5-million each to build a golf course. That's not including land cost. In addition to that, in today's market, golf courses are crying.....weeping...and several are dying (as in turning into large weed patches) because the sport of golf is in the downslide. The younger generation is not willing to spend the time it takes to become a "good" player. (Play 3 times a week which invest an average of 6 hours for 18 holes at a minimum) and thus, golf courses that sprang up in the late 1990's and early 2000's with heavy debt are "Trump-ruptcy" filing. Older private clubs cannot find younger members to come in and pay the fees and spend the time and money, thus are becoming large tracts of weed patches. Another fine investment you've gotten us into!! Pass the wine. You are right Dave, golf courses are hurting. Why build more? Idiots. |
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Post by fleroo on Jun 22, 2016 11:37:35 GMT -5
I like to golf here and there, and THAT is a hair-brained idea.
Add to that. There is no way in hell you can construct an 18 hole golf course for anywhere near the 1.5 million range.
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Post by redarrow on Jun 23, 2016 18:38:25 GMT -5
I hope it never happens. On the private/public debate: I am glad some state parks have campgrounds and cabins for rent. I used to use them a few times a year. It was nice to camp where every guy you saw was NOT  carrying a beer. |
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Post by cspot on Jun 23, 2016 19:33:29 GMT -5
I hope it never happens. On the private/public debate: I am glad some state parks have campgrounds and cabins for rent. I used to use them a few times a year. It was nice to camp where every guy you saw was carrying a beer. I don't have an issue with campgrounds/cabins/boat launches/ etc that benefit being able to enjoy these areas. A golf course though is a terrible idea. |
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Post by turkeykiller on Jun 23, 2016 19:51:28 GMT -5
I think the PGC could build a few on GL's, sell a golf license and solve their financial problem.
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Post by redarrow on Jun 23, 2016 20:05:13 GMT -5
The expense of building and maintaining a golf course will only make the already tight budgets worse. And, now that golf courses are have trouble keeping their heads above water, is perfect timing for the government to get involved, don't ya think?
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Post by buzz on Jun 23, 2016 20:29:57 GMT -5
Red is right, the cost of mowing, fertilizing, hired help, clubhouse maintenance, golf carts, buying $50,000 mowers.......etc
Lets keep in mind that all those employees will probably be "state" employees and get the big benny package...........
I agree with Fleroo, 1.5 million wont build it, especially if it a Arnold Palmer design........got ta be nice if his design name goes on it.
Certainly one of the dumbest ideas I have heard in a while.........
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Post by davet on Jun 24, 2016 7:27:16 GMT -5
I like to golf here and there, and THAT is a hair-brained idea. Add to that. There is no way in hell you can construct an 18 hole golf course for anywhere near the 1.5 million range. Well, you can build one for $1.5 million. Exclusive of the land cost....and that is if the land is not woodland covered, and essentially rolling and a field. But....you may ask how would I know? Because I had a client build two of them for under this. Also....using a "new" type of greens building technology that allowed the greens to be depreciated. Under prior tax law green building cost were permanent cost and non-depreciable. But a court case from a fellow who built greens with a new technology proved that these greens had a limited life, but were less costly to maintain....thus depreciable. OTOH.....I will say both of these courses were built 20 years ago. So, add inflation and likely today that his cost would be $2.5 million. But if you get a big name involved......fogetabbout it. |
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Post by buzz on Jun 24, 2016 11:30:50 GMT -5
Just a reasonable club house, fully furnished, and blacktop parking lot would eat up best part of the first million.....
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Post by fleroo on Jun 24, 2016 12:43:54 GMT -5
Absolutely. Perhaps way back in 19XX, a fairly crappy course (or should I say modest) could be build for a couple million, but you aren't going to get close to that today. Dave, maybe your clients built "Par 3's" ?  |
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Post by Dutch on Jun 24, 2016 13:05:11 GMT -5
Just a reasonable club house, fully furnished, and blacktop parking lot would eat up best part of the first million..... What's it matter, it's just taxpayer money......  |
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Post by davet on Jun 24, 2016 14:29:43 GMT -5
You guys realize that if you put out the bids to a "builder" your going to get soaked to the bone. And if you hire out the course dirt pushing to a "Professional Dirt Pusher" your....again....going to get soaked to the bone. No. What this fellow did was hire his own employees, buy his own dirt moving equipment, his own graders, dump trucks and built the roughs, fairways and greens himself. And why not. He already owned 4 golf courses for 20 years. He knew what made grass grow, how to properly angle a fairway so it wouldn't "puddle" and the same with a green. He knew how to build a pond, install a working irrigation system. This isn't rocket science. He knew how long to make par 4's and 5's so they were not so difficult the "average" golfer would struggle to make a par, yet put the pro T's far enough back to challenge a scratch golfer. Build a clubhouse? This isn't a country club. What do you want? Restaurants? No. A place to eat? Yes. Not a full service tuxedo watier and a doorman. This is a public course......not a country club. Limited menu food. Bar with 6 choices of beer and the same in whiskey. Oh....who built the clubhouse? Not the builder. Sub out the foundation. Hire a framing crew. You get the picture. He was the prime contractor. Hands on type of guy. No BS taken from anyone. Ask for a price and if you were high he would quip "hey....I just want to rent it, not buy it." It's not impossible. It's well within reason. Long before the fellow had passed away he built this course. www.mannittogc.com The place was let go for a time and then sold. You can if you want to, go to the Westmoreland County Deed web site and see what the place sold for. It went for a song. When I was healthy I played this course many times. It was challenging, well kept then, and the fairway grass was like no other public course you played on. But hey......what do I know? |
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Post by davet on Jun 24, 2016 14:41:32 GMT -5
And BTW......looking at those woods in the first photo.....I killed many bucks on that hillside with a bow. I have fond memories of those woods and can tell you where the little spring bubbles up on the hillside. That's where the bucks would come during the rut to get a "refreshing drink" to get ready for the next round of breading!!! Unless they would come by the path that I was waiting to ambush 'em.
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Post by buzz on Jun 24, 2016 19:08:56 GMT -5
Dave, we need to have a crown royal and go over today's math pertaining to equipment cost, labor cost, fuel cost etc...........
I still say 1.5 million is warm up money, losses buys the crown........lol
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Post by GlennD on Jun 24, 2016 19:48:27 GMT -5
Now hold on just a minute. If someone is going to get the Crown out, count me in! |
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Post by davet on Jun 25, 2016 8:22:43 GMT -5
Dave, we need to have a crown royal and go over today's math pertaining to equipment cost, labor cost, fuel cost etc........... I still say 1.5 million is warm up money, losses buys the crown........lol Yeah Buzz, I did say that the $1.5 mil was a cost of like, 20 years ago. So I revised my cost up to $2.5 mil. (See above....somewhere  ) Now I'm speaking of the initial capital outlay. Of course, you need the gang-mowers (reel type) for cutting the fairways and roughs, at least two greens-mowers (I think they run about $8-K each). But for golf carts....today no "self respecting" golf course actually buys them. Today most course's lease their carts. It's a less costly program where the carts are under warranty, are replaced every three years, and you don't have to pay a full time employee to maintain your fleet of carts. When you have a cart that breaks, you just call up Textron or Club Car, or who-ever, and they come out, pick up your broke one and drop off a replacement. Easy as apple pie. No employee that called off sick, no parts out of stock, "one click....that's it." Now hold on just a minute. If someone is going to get the Crown out, count me in! Hey....I'll even bring the crown. When we get done with the Crown, the State will be paying us as "Consultants" to "Show them a better way." *coffeespit* |
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Post by 3212 on Jun 25, 2016 8:53:42 GMT -5
Trap and skeet course would be cheaper.
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carrying a beer.
) Now I'm speaking of the initial capital outlay. Of course, you need the gang-mowers (reel type) for cutting the fairways and roughs, at least two greens-mowers (I think they run about $8-K each). But for golf carts....today no "self respecting" golf course actually buys them. Today most course's lease their carts. It's a less costly program where the carts are under warranty, are replaced every three years, and you don't have to pay a full time employee to maintain your fleet of carts. When you have a cart that breaks, you just call up Textron or Club Car, or who-ever, and they come out, pick up your broke one and drop off a replacement. Easy as apple pie. No employee that called off sick, no parts out of stock, "one click....that's it."