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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 16, 2016 16:23:02 GMT -5
My best day was 21 flushes in western Washington County in the late 80s. Been a steady downward spiral since then. I had 1 all last year. First one I have seen in quite a few years.
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Post by bushmaster on Feb 16, 2016 16:36:05 GMT -5
I flushed around 6 or 7 while walking in to stand during archery. That's over the entire season. Never see them when I'm looking for them though.
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Post by grouse28 on Feb 16, 2016 18:09:37 GMT -5
Fleroo: Absolutely correct, although different areas. My experience matches yours except in Lancaster, Lebanon, Berks , Schuylkill and Franklin Counties. The habitat lacks the birds.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 6:18:44 GMT -5
Ok, if DEP experts say WN isn't really in areas where grouse live, why were so many eggs infected???
Or is it that DEP has pretty much stopped looking for WN where grouse live because few people live where grouse live, thus, why worry about it? DEP looks for WN so they can spray, to protect people.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 6:20:43 GMT -5
Now, if weather is such a huge issue, and the winters are to blame, why are there a good number of grouse in areas of Maine where Grouse28 hunted, and they had upwards of 7 FEET of snow on the ground? Oh, and TONS of turkeys as well?
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Post by fleroo on Feb 17, 2016 8:16:23 GMT -5
IS THIS THE SAME DUTCH I REMEMBER FROM DAYS AND SITES GONE BY ? Did somebody take over your screen handle ? I guess we would need to see a current picture in shorts to be sure. Well, on second thoughts. You were the "it's all habitat" guy, right ? Well, of course you need proper habitat, BUT, I just can't take much more of the same drivel, from the same folks, preaching the "habitat" company line over and over and over. When discussing winged critters, I WAS THERE. I'm not sure these 20 and 30 something PGC Biologists aren't simply reading off a songsheet. I'm not gong to pretend I'm all knowing of what happened to Grouse and Pheasant across the entire PA landscape, cuz I didn't grow up hunting the entire PA landscape. Per Pheasants, I keep hearing "hedgerows" and "corn stubble". MALARKEY. We have habitat now down here, that dwarfs the protective aspect of a stinkin' hedgerow. And just because a combine in 1960 left a bit more grain on the ground, and stubbed corn 12" off the ground, I'm pretty sure an avian predator would have no issues identifying a friggin Pheasant in such "cover", and pick it off. Ole Rachel wrote Silent Spring, and of course, the somber effects of chemicals were addressed, as well the should have. Well, it took a while for those positive effects to manifest itself, but it has and is, in a big way. Now, add raptor protection to whatever biological or environmental "event" that has and/or is occurring, and you have quite the cocktail. Rabbits, though not in the same dire category, are declining here also. We have more cover for rabbits now than we EVER had in the 50's, 60's, etc... Heck, in the early 90's, if somebody actually shot a Yote around here, it was paraded around. We NEVER heard of a Bobkitty. Fisher back then ? Zilch. Add snakes, coons (lack of trapping), skunks... I'll tell ya, it's a wonder any game animal out there can make it to adulthood with all the perils they can face on a daily basis.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 8:52:35 GMT -5
I have said for a long time that folks who continue to say the habitat in the northern tier is bad, have not been in the northern tier in a while.
The Tioga State forest has been cut extensively since the 70's. Google Earth shows that. The cutting isn't done along roads and is hidden.
The famous photo of my legs, taken in May 2009, shows that regen of timber cuts is amazing, for the most part. Fifteen foot OAK stump sprouts in 4 growing seasons, is what that showed. Prior to 2000, there was no regen possible where that pic was taken.
But, I'm still told, by people who have never set foot on state forests, that things are "bad". They aren't.
The habitat is there for many things, but many things, like Grouse28 said, are slowly going missing.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 8:54:12 GMT -5
What I DO see, in many photos on FB of successful hunters, on private lands, is REALLY bad habitat. I mean, many pics have almost no living thing on the forest floor. That's not the case on the state forests, in many areas.
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Post by fleroo on Feb 17, 2016 9:02:52 GMT -5
I haven't heard. confused-smiley-013
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Post by gobblerhunter on Feb 17, 2016 9:03:48 GMT -5
as for the northern states w/ more snow grouse can snow roost that helps them a lot
as for the northern counties Dutch i think the habitat is good like you say. I would think the far SW and and SE a lot of it could maybe do w/ the fragmented land?
The springs have a ton to do w/ the little ones would be my guess. wetter/cool springs can cause problems.
I'm sure WNV takes some for sure but I doubt thats the smoking gun IMO
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 9:05:00 GMT -5
GH, then how are so many infected eggs explained?
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Post by gobblerhunter on Feb 17, 2016 9:07:24 GMT -5
the eggs in the study? i thought they infected them w/ the virus?
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Post by dougell on Feb 17, 2016 9:08:41 GMT -5
I can't comment on Tioga county and I'd certainly never question your ability to analyze the habitat,especially as it pertains to deer impact.I will agree with you that the habitat has made huge strides in recovery in many places.I just haven't found a place around here that has good habitat and few deer.I can still show you places with poor habitat and few deer but not the other way around.We have deer,turkeys in abundance and grouse where the habitat is suitable.Seeing them and shooting them can be a different story altogether.We also have every predator that resides in Pa.Just this morning,there were two sets of coyote tracks on my porch,sniffing around where we let the dog out.There's a huge mountain top on Moshannon state forest that was heavily timbered about 12 years ago.It's loaded with gravevine thickets and flushing 12+ grouse in a couple hours without a dog is common.I have to admit that I didn't hunt it this year for grouse but did take a scouting trip up there on the first afternoon of bear season.I never left any skidder trails and still flushed a couple of grouse and saw about a dozen deer.Nothing is more important than good habitat but good habitat will not trump any type of disease outbreak.I have to admit,the skeeters have me concerned after reading that article.
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Post by fleroo on Feb 17, 2016 9:15:14 GMT -5
NEWSFLASH: Those were your dog's tracks you goofball. *coffeespit*
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Post by fleroo on Feb 17, 2016 9:23:10 GMT -5
It doesn't take long to create HIGHLY acceptable habitat once those chainsaws lay those mature trees on the forest floor, that's for sure. But at 1'ish % cutting per year, I'm surprised to hear the habitat in the NC is rebounding to any degree.
I was last at my pals camp in Austin/Costello area about 15 years ago. Not sure of the exact route we took from here, but it took us straight through Dubois. Once we got up around to where we started seeing Elk, and up past that, I commented to him how "sparse" the woods were, and asked how much of anything could actually exist in such forests. The difference was stark, and HIGHLY noticeable compared to the Eastern Washington County I just left. It's incredible what happens when you hear those saws run. I run mine in my own little niche world, so I see what it accomplishes even on a very small scale.
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Post by dougell on Feb 17, 2016 9:38:28 GMT -5
It doesn't take long to create HIGHLY acceptable habitat once those chainsaws lay those mature trees on the forest floor, that's for sure. But at 1'ish % cutting per year, I'm surprised to hear there habitat in the NC is rebounding to any degree. I was last at my pals camp in Austin/Costello area about 15 years ago. Not sure of the exact route we took from here, but it took us straight through Dubois. Once we got up around to where we started seeing Elk, and up past that, I commented to him how "sparse" the woods were, and asked how much of anything could actually exist in such forests. The difference was stark, and HIGHLY noticeable compared to the Eastern Washington County I just left. It's incredible what happens when you hear those saws run. I run mine in my own little niche world, so I see what it accomplishes even on a very small scale. The 1% is a myth.Some areas are heavily logged and some will never be.Even the areas that aren't being cut are showing signs of improvement.
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Post by dougell on Feb 17, 2016 9:39:35 GMT -5
NEWSFLASH: Those were your dog's tracks you goofball. *coffeespit* No,they was yote tracks for sure.I back tracked them quite a ways until I had to get ready for work.
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Post by grouse28 on Feb 17, 2016 9:52:45 GMT -5
Dutch: The grouse eggs were not infected. The chicks after they hatched were deliberately infected in the lab. The study only proved that WNV will kill grouse. The collected blood samples may so how widespread the WNV is within the population.
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Post by dougell on Feb 17, 2016 9:54:22 GMT -5
It doesn't take long to create HIGHLY acceptable habitat once those chainsaws lay those mature trees on the forest floor, that's for sure. But at 1'ish % cutting per year, I'm surprised to hear there habitat in the NC is rebounding to any degree. I was last at my pals camp in Austin/Costello area about 15 years ago. Not sure of the exact route we took from here, but it took us straight through Dubois. Once we got up around to where we started seeing Elk, and up past that, I commented to him how "sparse" the woods were, and asked how much of anything could actually exist in such forests. The difference was stark, and HIGHLY noticeable compared to the Eastern Washington County I just left. It's incredible what happens when you hear those saws run. I run mine in my own little niche world, so I see what it accomplishes even on a very small scale. You took rt 255 to rt 120 to rt 872.That habitat is bad but getting better.I have a buddy who owns 200 acres right where rt120 and rt 872 meet.It's a steep cliff and the habitat was terrible.He had it timbered in 2001 and the deer hunting got good for a while.Now it's pole timer and going the other way along with the deer.It's so steep that they had to skid the logs with a helicopter.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 17, 2016 12:32:45 GMT -5
Dutch: The grouse eggs were not infected. The chicks after they hatched were deliberately infected in the lab. The study only proved that WNV will kill grouse. The collected blood samples may so how widespread the WNV is within the population. Ok. Now I understand. This is why the PGC was asking hunters to disclose nest locations, to collect eggs. Funny tho, I was told WN wouldn't kill grouse. Guess someone was wrong. Sorta like the time we were told there wasn't a threatened species living in our camp because that wasn't their "habitat"? LOL
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Post by fleroo on Feb 18, 2016 8:06:51 GMT -5
Your local Barber ? I had a tiny little bubble-like thingy on the middle of my forehead. It was nothing like what that Lemmy fella had festering on his mug, but concerning nonetheless. A pretty young co-worker (female), told me it was a Virus, and gave me the name of her Dermatologist that took care of hers. Well, I went to him, he checked it out, and seemed concerned. Of course, I too got concerned at that moment, and said quite shakily, "My co-worker says it's a virus ?". Well Doc looked at me kinda sternly, and replied, "What the hell does your co-worker know ? That looks like Cancer". Long story short, sent it away, and it came back negatory. Moral of the story Dutch.... don't always listen to your Barber.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 18, 2016 11:59:41 GMT -5
I don't have a barber, I have a "stylist".
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Post by fleroo on Feb 18, 2016 12:35:27 GMT -5
You'd do well to find another.
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Post by barbless on Oct 25, 2016 12:24:10 GMT -5
Grouse population decline is probably due to all the reasons noted in this thread. So sad, when I think back of the great days of grouse hunting. Before fluorescent orange was the law, stalking up on grouse was so much fun. Even with dogs, the birds were less spooky. But there were a lot of grouse back then. We will never see the population, state wide, reach those numbers again.
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