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Post by Dutch on Feb 14, 2016 20:11:40 GMT -5
Say it ain't so? Why is it the hunters are the first to know and then the PGC finally comes around? triblive.com/sports/outdoors/9952821-74/grouse-williams-birdsAs if mosquitoes weren't aggravating enough. Now it seems they might be playing a role — potentially a large one — in the decline of ruffed groused across Pennsylvania. The birds are scarce, without a doubt. Population monitoring suggests their numbers hit a 50-year low in 2014, said Lisa Williams, grouse biologist for the Pennsylvania Game Commission. Hunters can attest. According to Williams, flush rates — defined as the number of grouse flushed per hour by hunters who volunteer to log their experiences — have been almost universally terrible of late. Statistics from 2014 — the most recent available — show flush rates were down anywhere from 13 percent to 66 percent across five of the state's six regions. What's more, 75 percent of Pennsylvania's 51,000 grouse hunters ended the year without killing one, Williams said. Just catching sight of one was tough. On average, it took a hunter five more hours to jump a grouse in 2014 than it did in 2000. “The trend is fairly bleak over the long term,” Williams said. For years, troubles with grouse were blamed on the aging of state forests. Grouse need early successional habitat — young forests — to survive. That cover is in short supply, Williams said. But population declines were slow until 2002, when there was a sharp dip, Williams said. A bit of a weak recovery followed, then another precipitous fall. “So whatever happened happened very quickly, over just two or three years. And it happened all across the state,” Williams said. Habitat doesn't change that fast, so this had the “fingerprints of disease” all over it, she said. West Nile showed up in New York City in 1999, then went “haywire” in 2002, right when grouse numbers fell, “so the timing fits,” Williams said. Ever since, she added, grouse populations and West Nile have fluctuated in inverse proportion. When one's up, the other's down. “We had the smoking gun, but nobody heard the bang,” she said. To test that theory, last spring the commission collected grouse eggs from the wild on game lands and got them to a USDA-certified, mosquito-free propagator in Idaho. The hatched chicks went to a university laboratory in Colorado. Ten of 18 birds were infected with West Nile, said Justin Brown, the commission's wildlife veterinarian. Of the remaining eight, five were vaccinated, and three were given a “sham” infection. The vaccinated and sham birds survived. Four of the infected birds became so sick they had to be euthanized within a week, and four others were so significantly impacted they would have had a hard time surviving in the wild, Brown said. “Basically, their hearts were just annihilated with this virus,” he said. If things continue, the day might come when the commission has to consider changes to grouse hunting, Williams said. But she's not ready to go there yet. For now, she said, the task is to figure out where West Nile is and isn't having an impact and do habitat work “where grouse have the greatest chance for survival.” “We'll be looking at this hard over the next 12 months,” she said. Bob Frye is a Tribune-Review staff writer. Reach him at bfrye@tribweb.com or via Twitter @bobfryeoutdoors. |
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Post by Dutch on Feb 14, 2016 20:17:44 GMT -5
In the last 3-4 years, we have gone from flushing grouse from 5-15 at a time, to barely having any flushes on our lease.
Yeah, I know grouse have swings, but we always had grouse, and then they disappeared.
We also had tons of turkeys back in 2002-2003, now, almost none.
There are SO many things we are "missing" in the woods, it ain't funny.
The woods have become quieter, and no one has listened, because we don't have DEGREES.
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Post by bake545 on Feb 14, 2016 21:43:27 GMT -5
Our grouse numbers have dropped a lot over the last 5-10 years. I think it's partly habitat related but don't doubt the west Nile angle. Our turkey population is still good although down some from years past.
I love hunting grouse but those days are in the past I think. Don't have the time to drive several hours one way to find some birds.
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Post by grouse28 on Feb 14, 2016 22:24:44 GMT -5
Study shows that WNV will kill grouse. Size of the study does not matter. Blood sample tests will determine extent of WNV impact on grouse. There is something very nefarious out there in the woods. Whether it is WNV or something else. There are less song birds in the woods, less small mammals, mice, etc. I do see a lot of viable grouse habitat with no birds. With grouse it seems to be a south to north movement of missing birds. 20 years ago there were numerous grouse in southern PA. GL 156,145,46, 43 and Michaux State forest. Now grouse are all but non existent in those areas.
Southern Appalachains are experiencing the same loss of grouse.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 5:00:14 GMT -5
For years, in the face of constant cutting on private and public lands, the PGC kept saying it was a lack of early successional habitat.
Hunters said something else was wrong.
Why is it the PGC is the last one to wake up to these things?
I had a PGC biologist tell me, flat out, WNV could never be the issue.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 5:57:39 GMT -5
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Post by GlennD on Feb 15, 2016 6:01:04 GMT -5
I had a PGC biologist tell me, flat out, WNV could never be the issue. We've had this discussion in other threads: wallpaper does not necessarily equate to common sense nor smarts. Practical experience is the best teacher.  I used to have a great grouse population in southern Bedford county about 20 years back. I have not seen a grouse for probably about a dozen or more years. :/ |
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Post by gobblerhunter on Feb 15, 2016 6:06:30 GMT -5
Yeah something is up but I never was sold on the WNV thing. Heck i'd take something w/ the ticks over that haha Also call me stupid but I have a hard time believing anything from Lisa after she went on record at the BOC meeting and said that- woodcock are mostly gone by the time pheasant stocking takes place. So when your biologist makes that claim I'm out.
Something else that i have noticed the last three years w/ grouse. where I find an abundance amount of soft mast I find good numbers
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 7:23:38 GMT -5
Ten of 18 birds were infected with West Nile, said Justin Brown, the commission's wildlife veterinarian. Of the remaining eight, five were vaccinated, and three were given a “sham” infection.
The vaccinated and sham birds survived. Four of the infected birds became so sick they had to be euthanized within a week, and four others were so significantly impacted they would have had a hard time surviving in the wild, Brown said.
“Basically, their hearts were just annihilated with this virus,” he said.
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 15, 2016 7:50:56 GMT -5
Turkey numbers have been going down and the PGC has been cutting season length. Grouse numbers have been down for many years and our season is still 2.5 months long.
Some on here have said, if numbers are down, killing any in hunting season contributes to the decline.
I believe that hunting pressure does not contribute to declines or affect overall populations of turkeys or grouse.
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Post by gobblerhunter on Feb 15, 2016 8:49:39 GMT -5
Ridge- that's what the studies have shown and i also don't believe hunting has an overall affect. But i do think there could be pocket situations that it could happen to. I know some people will hunt one clear cut over and over and if there isn't much other cover near by i could see that putting pressure on grouse in that area and not only being killed by hunters but moved to marginal cover that would make them an easier target. But again I'm not sure about all of that
I hunted a cut near the end of the season this year first time i hit it. while in i ran into 3 guys and a dog, we got to talking and i said this is the only time i was in this cut this year and he said that they have been in it 10 or so times.
But over all I agree
as of turkey didn't they come out and say they over estimated how many turks we have had in the past?
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Post by turkeykiller on Feb 15, 2016 8:52:48 GMT -5
Maybe the PGC should institute a grouse stamp, and start raising and stocking them.
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 9:23:59 GMT -5
Yes, they had estimated 400,000 about 10 years ago or more, now they say the top number is now 285,000.
Funny how the decline mirrors the grouse and WN?
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 9:26:29 GMT -5
Turkey numbers have been going down and the PGC has been cutting season length. Grouse numbers have been down for many years and our season is still 2.5 months long. Some on here have said, if numbers are down, killing any in hunting season contributes to the decline. I believe that hunting pressure does not contribute to declines or affect overall populations of turkeys or grouse. There are more turkey hunters than grouse hunters, so, hunter numbers may have something to do with it? They now say 51,000 grouse hunters? Not more than a few years ago it was around 90,000? Well, the article said 51,000 |
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 15, 2016 9:39:24 GMT -5
There are more turkey hunters than grouse hunters, so, hunter numbers may have something to do with it? Point was some were saying if numbers are down, killing any by hunting contributes to the decline. I argue that hunting of turkeys/grouse is not the main player in declining numbers and the populations would still be down, even without hunting. |
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Post by Dutch on Feb 15, 2016 10:28:23 GMT -5
Perhaps, but hunter effort on turkeys MAY be contributing to an already bad situation.
Why are they issuing fewer doe tags and shortening seasons if hunting isn't an issue?
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Post by ridgecommander on Feb 15, 2016 10:52:18 GMT -5
Perhaps, but hunter effort on turkeys MAY be contributing to an already bad situation. And it may be for grouse as well. I finally saw a grouse in the area of 2A I hunt during this years flintlock season. First one I have seen in many, many years. If I shot that grouse, it "may" have contributed to a bad situation. While I do not believe that is the case, the use of "may" is an attempt to cover the bases. Unlike birds, hunting pressure is a major player in mortality among deer in Pennsylvania. If it were not, we could not have brought down the numbers as fast as we did during HR. Again my point is, hunting is contributing player in the ebbs and flows for certain species. For quail, grouse, woodcock, turkeys in Pa, other factors play are way bigger role. Their numbers will continue to ebb and flow regardless or hunting pressure. |
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Post by tcaddis on Feb 16, 2016 10:31:26 GMT -5
Ten of 18 birds were infected with West Nile, said Justin Brown, the commission's wildlife veterinarian. Of the remaining eight, five were vaccinated, and three were given a “sham” infection. The vaccinated and sham birds survived. Four of the infected birds became so sick they had to be euthanized within a week, and four others were so significantly impacted they would have had a hard time surviving in the wild, Brown said. “Basically, their hearts were just annihilated with this virus,” he said. 18 total chicks 10 chicks infected with virus out of the egg. Of those 10 4 euthanized and 4 significantly impaired. What the story on the two left over birds. Infected and doing fine?  ? 8 tampered birds. All survive. How about complete reporting. |
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Post by tcaddis on Feb 16, 2016 10:41:55 GMT -5
I'd also give this some credence.
This topic has come up on here before and I have posted my comments regarding grouse and WNV before also but will do it again as it is close to me on two fronts. The first is that my favorite past time is grouse hunting and secondly, I work as a Water Pollution Biologist with PA DEP who supervised other Water Pollution Biologists that oversee the DEP WNV Program in PA.
When the Program first got funding by the Legislature in 1999-2000 I believe, every County in PA except for two had a Program which DEP oversaw. Thousands upon thousands of mosquito collections were made everywhere to try and figure out many things such as mosquito populations in PA, types of species presence and type and occurrence of the virus and what species carried the virus. During the first several years the County Programs also collected dead birds for presence of the virus. It was amazing to me how many hawks, crows and blue jays died from WNV at the onset (since they are highly susceptible to WNV), so many I thought they would become non-existent in certain areas. As we learned more things and refined the Program, we began to target our sampling and concentrate on areas where we would routinely find mosquito species that carried the virus or areas that we routinely would find mosquito pools with the virus. My point is that areas of the state that I consider the ruffed grouse core range rarely if ever had mosquitoes with WNV. In general, the species that transmit the virus are species that live in more urban/suburban areas where they have lots of areas to breed such as large tire piles, old swimming pools, other artificial containers, etc. As an example, in Crawford County, which in the spring is practically one big standing pool of water, we have some of the highest populations of mosquitoes in the State, but rarely do we find mosquitoes that have the virus because those species do not show up here in large numbers. Counties such as Philadelphia, York, Dauphin, Allegheny, etc. have a very high incidence of mosquito species with the virus. It has got to the point that we rarely ever even sample in many counties (which as I said before I would consider the ruffed grouse core range) because we rarely, if ever, even find the virus and if we do, they are centered around a human population area.
Lisa Williams, the PGC Ruffed Grouse Biologist, and I have had many conversations regarding this. I support all that she is trying to do to find an answer for the declining grouse numbers and she does understand that it is probably more than WNV. She gets the whole habitat thing in PA and really understands that we are severely losing our good grouse habitat, especially southern and eastern PA.
Now, don't get me wrong, do I think WNV would kill grouse? Of course I do and I am sure that they have in PA, I just don't think that they come into contact with the virus like other bird species might.
With all that being said, I fully support Lisa's efforts and myself along with a couple of other posters on here such as DAP, Country Nate and Lost Again submitted many grouse blood samples to Lisa this year, both serum and blood strip. I believe I submitted 5 serum and a dozen blood strip samples to her and I think DAP and Country Nate submitted more than me. I am eagerly waiting on the results since I think this will tell us if WNV is actually present in the wild grouse population.
I sure hope that WNV is not a major contributing factor in grouse populations in PA because this just brings a new added twist to a species that must overcome so much to survive. At least with bad weather and loss of habitat, we can pinpoint the answer for the decline.
One other thing I will add, I have been keeping detailed records of my grouse hunting for almost 30 years and I have seen some pretty good highs and lows over that time period. This year was my worst year with 1.58 flushes per hour. However, in 1997, my second worst year and before WNV, I had 1.77 per hour. My best years (I had many in the late 80's and 90's where I would consistently average over 3 birds per hour), however, were during the 2008-09, 2009-10, 2010-11 and 2011-2012 seasons were I averaged over 4 birds per hour and the 2010-11 season, I averaged 4.77 flushes per hour.
I sure hope I am right and WNV is not the major culprit, because if it is, there is certainly no way we can control it.
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Post by tcaddis on Feb 16, 2016 11:02:06 GMT -5
Also, lets take into account the Appalachian Cooperative Grouse Research Project that correlates hard mast to the breeding health of hens coming out of winter. When hard mast qualities are available the hens are healthier and produce better clutches of healthy birds. In low mast production years chicks are as healthy and clutches are smaller. So, if you have low hard mast, long never ending winters,a wet cold spring, your recruitment is going to suck. Our last three winter has been??? Springs? Hard mast production?
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Post by fleroo on Feb 16, 2016 11:08:42 GMT -5
Kudo's for your efforts in taking action to help out, BUT, not sure how that will be very representative ? You guys took a handful or two of Grouse, which were obviously healthy enough to survive. Doesn't that tell you there is a good chance they are not infected with WNV ? Perhaps some are/were, but I would deem it inconclusive if nothing showed up in your submitted sample ?
In parts of Washington, and MOST of Greene County, 30, 25, even 20 years ago, we had a substantial amount of Grouse. THEN BANG ! A precipitous, almost overnight collapse. Now, here's the kicker. It wasn't until the 80's, and into the 90's, that we experienced any real level of logging down here. Sooooooo, once the positive (for Grouse) effects of logging take place, you would expect Grouse numbers to increase, right ? They collapsed in that period. Every time I would bring this up on boards, I hear habitat, habitat, habitat. Well, I haven't heard anybody explain what happened here YET. And it wasn't habitat.
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Post by tcaddis on Feb 16, 2016 11:30:28 GMT -5
I am not the guy that is the water pollution biologist. I can tell you that group of fellows kill more that 2 grouse a season.
My point on the PAGC study is 2 chicks in their study are not accounted for. There was 10 infected birds. They tell of 4 that were enthused. 4 that would not survive because of heart damage. What happen to the two remaining birds!!!
Also, were all the eggs taken to be hatched were they from the one nest? Five nests? How many nests?
30,25,20 years ago. Any Fallow farms? Any reverting fields, abandon apple orchards? Hawthorne apple creek bottoms? Grouse habitat isn't always a clearcut.
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Post by fleroo on Feb 16, 2016 13:12:57 GMT -5
Well of course there were fallow farms... there's more now.
Well of course there were reverted fields... there's more now.
Well of course there were abandoned apple orchards... there's more now.
Well of course there were Hawthorne laden creek bottoms... there's more now.
Not to mention, all the "goodies" back then that come with a timber-cut, or "clearcut" as you say, the tree-top snags, the bramble brush, the saplings.
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Post by tcaddis on Feb 16, 2016 14:31:12 GMT -5
I guess I don't know what you are trying to say. 30 years ago is 1986. You had birds 30, 25, 20 years ago, but the real cutting started in the 80 and 90 and no birds??
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Post by fleroo on Feb 16, 2016 15:34:48 GMT -5
YOU GOT IT ! Absolutely correct. I remember many hunts around Pine Bank and Aleppo in Greene County, mostly with two friends and no dogs. It was nothing to put up 8-10, and on good days, 12-15 birds in 4-5 hours of hunting. Early to mid-80's and into mid 90's. Shucks, I remember here closer to home in Eastern Washington County, where Grouse hunting pretty much wasn't any good back then, putting up 4 or 5 on rabbit hunts. Western Washington County, around Avella and such, we could sometimes come close to matching the Greene County flush rates. I don't embellish (unless you ask me personal questions  ) It's all true. It's derned true. And I'm sure there are folks here in their 50's/60's that can back up my claims on those Grouse flush rates down here back then. SOMETHING happened. It was harsh, and it was quite sudden. The heavier logging actually didn't really take place down here until the latter 80's to early-mid 90's. You would think that would be when the Grouse hunting got really good, right ? Well, that was actually the start of a quick decline. And as farms that were still viable even into the 70's or so, pretty much shut down due to not being profitable, many started to "revert", and were doing just that into the 80's/90's. Again, you'd think it would be a boon for Grouse, right ? No Go. |
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) It's all true. It's derned true. And I'm sure there are folks here in their 50's/60's that can back up my claims on those Grouse flush rates down here back then. SOMETHING happened. It was harsh, and it was quite sudden.