Post by pfsc on Jun 18, 2015 13:26:50 GMT -5
House Game and Fisheries Committee
6/15/15, 11:00 a.m., G-50 Irvis Building
By Trevor J. Monk
The committee held a public hearing to receive testimony on HB 223 and HB 366, which would legalize the use of semi automatic rifles while hunting.
HB 223 Sonney, Curt - (PN 204) Amends Title 34 (Game), in hunting and furtaking, to allow the use of semiautomatic rifles with a caliber of .223 or less and a cartridge capacity of not more than six, for the hunting of coyotes, foxes and woodchucks (groundhogs). Effective in 60 days.
HB 366 Saccone, Rick - (PN 403) Amends Title 34 (Game), in hunting and furtaking, further providing for unlawful devices and methods by authorizing the use of semi-automatic center fire rifles limited to a five shell capacity and 22 caliber semiautomatic rim fire rifles with a built in capacity limit. Effective in 60 days.
Rep. Curt Sonney (R-Erie), prime sponsor of HB 223, explained the legislation would legalize the use of semi automatic rifles and provide restrictions related to the caliber and defines what species can be hunted with a semi automatic rifle.
Rep. Rick Saccone (R-Allegheny), prime sponsor of HB 366, explained the bill legalizes the use of semi automatic rifles, provides for restrictions related to the magazine size, but designates the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) as the authority over what species can be hunted with a semi automatic rifle. He said he has 50 co-sponsors on the bill.
Kim Stolfer, Allegheny County Sportsmen's League, explained that it is unlawful to hunt with automatic or semi-automatic rifles and handguns. He continued, "Currently in Pennsylvania, we allow semi-automatic shotguns to be used for hunting small game, migratory birds, turkey and deer in special regulation areas (ammunition specific), without incident. In support of the legalization of semi-automatic rifles to hunt, Stolfer argued the advancements in modern technology have incrementally overcome the semi-automatic rifle's original shortcomings. He noted that 49 of the 50 states accept the use of semi-automatic firearms for hunting, with the exception of Pennsylvania. Stolfer also detailed many advantages of allowing the use of semi-automatic rifles, and the safety benefits associated with their use.
"There is no merit to avoid taking action on this important change. While there are two bills before us, HB 366 and HB 223, we believe the best, and most appropriate, choice is HB 366," Stolfer stated. "It is long past due for Pennsylvania to join the community of states that recognize freedom of choice on behalf of the hunting community and cast off the mindset of bureaucratic prohibition, and prejudice, of an era long gone," he continued, "In 2006, the legislature approved the lawful carrying of self-defense firearms by bunters in the field, despite decades of bureaucratic mistrust. We believe embracing new technology is a furtherance of that commonsense approach."
Randy Santucci, president, The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, stated, "Hopefully we can bring Pennsylvania up to nationally accepted standards regarding the safe use and benefit of semi-automatic firearms by hunters. May I give specifics in which have developed my position, and that of the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania supporting HB 366," Santucci continued. "Semi-autos are the most popular top selling rifle action in America today, and have been for many years. It has strong appeal to youth and growing appeal to even old shooters like myself." He noted, "Pennsylvania not allowing semis for hunting, perceptively puts us on the wrong side of the pro gun argument. With our prohibition of their use, it aligns us with the anti gun crowd than being a solid pro-second amendment state."
In closing Santucci stated, "The accuracy, reduced recoil and muzzle jump, which benefit follow up shots to dispatch a game animal more humanely, further adds to the reasoning to legalize semi-auto firearms…Frankly there are two numbers identified here today, that should have extreme relevance to influencing your support of passage of HB 366. Case history or past practice are always atop the list of deciding factors in any discussion legislative or otherwise. Those numbers are 49 and 1"
Directing the question to Rep Saccone, Rep. Everett asked if HB 366 would allow the PGC to determine what season and species semi-automatic rifles would be authorized for. Rep. Saccone said that is correct. He said it would enable the use of semi-automatic rifles under the authority of the PGC, which would determine when a semi-automatic rifle can be used, and what species it can be hunted with.
Rep. Maloney asked if it is true that a pump action shotgun can be fired faster than a semi automatic rifle. Stolfer said in comparison that is true.
Rep. Kortz asked if the number of any of hunting fatalities, referenced in a chart in Stolfer's testimony, included the number of semi-automatic rifle fatalities. Stolfer stated it does not and is not broken down by the cause of death. He noted that Pennsylvania is on the low end of hunting related fatalities.
Rep. Kortz asked what state was the first to legalize the use of semi-automatic rifles. Stolfer said the first state was New York in 1911. He noted the use of semi-automatic rifles has been a long tradition in other states. Rep. Kortz said he supports HB 366, and it was a "smart move" to enable the PGC's authority over what species can be hunted with a semi-automatic rifle.
Rep. Kavulich asked if the ability to fire shoots in rapid succession would negatively affect the population of species in Pennsylvania. Stolfer said it would not affect the population of a species, because the PGC set the bag limit each year.
John Kline, government liaison, Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), said, "The Federation has, and continues to support legislation that puts decision-making into the hands of the regulatory agencies on matters of seasons, bag limits, licensing, equipment requirements and safety." He continued, "In March of this year our delegates met in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania to discuss a number of topics. House bills 223 and 366 were on our agenda for consideration by our members. There was a lot of discussion and members made their positions known. The Federation supports House Bill 223 which would allow the use of semi-automatic rifles, caliber. 223 and less for hunting coyotes, foxes and groundhogs."
"Let me state publicly that the Federation recognizes that there is no stronger advocate for sportsmen and the exercise of our second amendment rights than the author and prime sponsor of HB 366. Having said that, the Federation was not able to gather consensus to support 366 which would allow hunting with of semi-automatic rifles but with magazine restrictions," Kline said. "Some of our members think that, perhaps an incremental approach might be better. I also point out that even though HB 223 is fairly prescriptive, a number of our delegates voted no on both bills because both bills are too prescriptive. In other words, let the Game Commission decide what tools are appropriate for the task," Kline stated.
Rep. Kortz asked if the PFSC is in support of HB 223, and not HB 366. Kline answered that is correct. He noted it is the belief of the PFSC that an incremental approach would be better.
Rep. Kortz asked how many delegates voted at the meeting in March. Kline stated "101".
Rep. Miller asked if there was any support. Kline explained there was support, but not enough to form a position.
Rep. Maloney stated both bills require a change in the statute, and asked what the PFSC recommends in regard to an incremental approach. Kline stated that is the general feeling of his membership, but did not draft a plan moving forward.
Matthew Hough, executive director, PGC, stated, "With the recent change in regulations in the state of Delaware, the only state that entirely prohibits the use of semi-automatic rifles for hunting is Pennsylvania." He continued, "Many states, including most of our neighboring states, allow the use of semi-automatic rifles with restrictions to include caliber, magazine capacity, huntable species, and seasons." He explained, "After reviewing the regulations in our neighboring states, there are several key components that we would prefer to see included in the semi-automatic rifle legislation. The most important aspect would be to give the Game Commission the authority to regulate the implementation of semi-automatic rifles for hunting…Part of this authority would be the ability to regulate caliber by species in order to maintain consistency with our existing hunting regulations." He continued, "Another key component would be a magazine capacity limited to five rounds. This does not include one round in the chamber, so the total carrying capacity would be limited to six rounds. A magazine capacity of five rounds would allow for quick follow-up shots that advocates want, while minimizing the safety and humane harvest concerns." He noted, "One of the primary concerns we have heard is in regard to the use of semi-automatic rifles during the big game seasons. In any legislation, we would like to see the huntable species limited to coyotes, foxes, and woodchucks, and to have the traditional deer, bear, turkey, and elk seasons excluded from the authorized semi-automatic rifle usage regardless of the species."
Rep. Moul asked why the PGC initially prohibited semi-automatic rifles. Hough said, "back then, they were not that reliable." He continued that semi-automatic rifles have improved dramatically since.
Rep. Moul asked if the use of semi-automatic rifles would reduce the number of injured animals. Hough said yes, because it would allow for a quicker follow up shot.
Rep. Maloney if the legislature or the PGC should determine what species can be hunted with a semi-automatic rifle. Hough said the PGC supports either approach, but noted that it is the PGC's belief that coyotes, foxes and woodchucks need to be included, if the legislature makes the determination.
Rep. Maloney asked if it is true that more hunting related accidents have taken place with a shotgun, and not a rifle. A PGC staff member said that is correct.
Rep. Kortz asked if the authority is given to the PGC, whether it would vote to include other species at a later date. Hough explained the PGC board would want to start out conservative with coyote, woodchucks and foxes.
Rep. Moul asked if the semi-automatic rifles would give the hunter an unfair advantage. Hough said the PGC is not concerned about semi-automatic rifles providing an unfair advantage. He noted that the PGC is concerned about the closing of some privately owned game lands if semi-automatic are legalized for hunting. He stated the potential closings are the result of the public's misperception of semi-automatic weapons.
Rep. Miller asked if the PGC clearly supports one of the bills over the other. Hough said the PGC does not support one over the other as long as the PGC has the ability to regulate. Hough noted that during PGC discussions on the legislation, it was determined that HB 223 would give define regulatory powers to the PGC, whereas HB 366 was "too open."
Chairman Gillespie asked about the general perception of the public with regard to the potential change in the law. Hough said the PGC is concerned about hunting coyote, because a coyote hunter hunts at night without reflective gear, which could startle some people when they see an individual dressed in camouflage holding a military style rifle. He added that the PGC is concerned about that perception, but would be able to handle it.
On the magazine capacity, Chairman Gillespie asked where the PGC stands. Hough stated one in the chamber and five in the magazine.
Chairman Gillespie asked if the PGC supports the use of semi-automatic rifles to hunt small game. Hough said that matter still needs to be looked into.
6/15/15, 11:00 a.m., G-50 Irvis Building
By Trevor J. Monk
The committee held a public hearing to receive testimony on HB 223 and HB 366, which would legalize the use of semi automatic rifles while hunting.
HB 223 Sonney, Curt - (PN 204) Amends Title 34 (Game), in hunting and furtaking, to allow the use of semiautomatic rifles with a caliber of .223 or less and a cartridge capacity of not more than six, for the hunting of coyotes, foxes and woodchucks (groundhogs). Effective in 60 days.
HB 366 Saccone, Rick - (PN 403) Amends Title 34 (Game), in hunting and furtaking, further providing for unlawful devices and methods by authorizing the use of semi-automatic center fire rifles limited to a five shell capacity and 22 caliber semiautomatic rim fire rifles with a built in capacity limit. Effective in 60 days.
Rep. Curt Sonney (R-Erie), prime sponsor of HB 223, explained the legislation would legalize the use of semi automatic rifles and provide restrictions related to the caliber and defines what species can be hunted with a semi automatic rifle.
Rep. Rick Saccone (R-Allegheny), prime sponsor of HB 366, explained the bill legalizes the use of semi automatic rifles, provides for restrictions related to the magazine size, but designates the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) as the authority over what species can be hunted with a semi automatic rifle. He said he has 50 co-sponsors on the bill.
Kim Stolfer, Allegheny County Sportsmen's League, explained that it is unlawful to hunt with automatic or semi-automatic rifles and handguns. He continued, "Currently in Pennsylvania, we allow semi-automatic shotguns to be used for hunting small game, migratory birds, turkey and deer in special regulation areas (ammunition specific), without incident. In support of the legalization of semi-automatic rifles to hunt, Stolfer argued the advancements in modern technology have incrementally overcome the semi-automatic rifle's original shortcomings. He noted that 49 of the 50 states accept the use of semi-automatic firearms for hunting, with the exception of Pennsylvania. Stolfer also detailed many advantages of allowing the use of semi-automatic rifles, and the safety benefits associated with their use.
"There is no merit to avoid taking action on this important change. While there are two bills before us, HB 366 and HB 223, we believe the best, and most appropriate, choice is HB 366," Stolfer stated. "It is long past due for Pennsylvania to join the community of states that recognize freedom of choice on behalf of the hunting community and cast off the mindset of bureaucratic prohibition, and prejudice, of an era long gone," he continued, "In 2006, the legislature approved the lawful carrying of self-defense firearms by bunters in the field, despite decades of bureaucratic mistrust. We believe embracing new technology is a furtherance of that commonsense approach."
Randy Santucci, president, The Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania, stated, "Hopefully we can bring Pennsylvania up to nationally accepted standards regarding the safe use and benefit of semi-automatic firearms by hunters. May I give specifics in which have developed my position, and that of the Unified Sportsmen of Pennsylvania supporting HB 366," Santucci continued. "Semi-autos are the most popular top selling rifle action in America today, and have been for many years. It has strong appeal to youth and growing appeal to even old shooters like myself." He noted, "Pennsylvania not allowing semis for hunting, perceptively puts us on the wrong side of the pro gun argument. With our prohibition of their use, it aligns us with the anti gun crowd than being a solid pro-second amendment state."
In closing Santucci stated, "The accuracy, reduced recoil and muzzle jump, which benefit follow up shots to dispatch a game animal more humanely, further adds to the reasoning to legalize semi-auto firearms…Frankly there are two numbers identified here today, that should have extreme relevance to influencing your support of passage of HB 366. Case history or past practice are always atop the list of deciding factors in any discussion legislative or otherwise. Those numbers are 49 and 1"
Directing the question to Rep Saccone, Rep. Everett asked if HB 366 would allow the PGC to determine what season and species semi-automatic rifles would be authorized for. Rep. Saccone said that is correct. He said it would enable the use of semi-automatic rifles under the authority of the PGC, which would determine when a semi-automatic rifle can be used, and what species it can be hunted with.
Rep. Maloney asked if it is true that a pump action shotgun can be fired faster than a semi automatic rifle. Stolfer said in comparison that is true.
Rep. Kortz asked if the number of any of hunting fatalities, referenced in a chart in Stolfer's testimony, included the number of semi-automatic rifle fatalities. Stolfer stated it does not and is not broken down by the cause of death. He noted that Pennsylvania is on the low end of hunting related fatalities.
Rep. Kortz asked what state was the first to legalize the use of semi-automatic rifles. Stolfer said the first state was New York in 1911. He noted the use of semi-automatic rifles has been a long tradition in other states. Rep. Kortz said he supports HB 366, and it was a "smart move" to enable the PGC's authority over what species can be hunted with a semi-automatic rifle.
Rep. Kavulich asked if the ability to fire shoots in rapid succession would negatively affect the population of species in Pennsylvania. Stolfer said it would not affect the population of a species, because the PGC set the bag limit each year.
John Kline, government liaison, Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), said, "The Federation has, and continues to support legislation that puts decision-making into the hands of the regulatory agencies on matters of seasons, bag limits, licensing, equipment requirements and safety." He continued, "In March of this year our delegates met in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania to discuss a number of topics. House bills 223 and 366 were on our agenda for consideration by our members. There was a lot of discussion and members made their positions known. The Federation supports House Bill 223 which would allow the use of semi-automatic rifles, caliber. 223 and less for hunting coyotes, foxes and groundhogs."
"Let me state publicly that the Federation recognizes that there is no stronger advocate for sportsmen and the exercise of our second amendment rights than the author and prime sponsor of HB 366. Having said that, the Federation was not able to gather consensus to support 366 which would allow hunting with of semi-automatic rifles but with magazine restrictions," Kline said. "Some of our members think that, perhaps an incremental approach might be better. I also point out that even though HB 223 is fairly prescriptive, a number of our delegates voted no on both bills because both bills are too prescriptive. In other words, let the Game Commission decide what tools are appropriate for the task," Kline stated.
Rep. Kortz asked if the PFSC is in support of HB 223, and not HB 366. Kline answered that is correct. He noted it is the belief of the PFSC that an incremental approach would be better.
Rep. Kortz asked how many delegates voted at the meeting in March. Kline stated "101".
Rep. Miller asked if there was any support. Kline explained there was support, but not enough to form a position.
Rep. Maloney stated both bills require a change in the statute, and asked what the PFSC recommends in regard to an incremental approach. Kline stated that is the general feeling of his membership, but did not draft a plan moving forward.
Matthew Hough, executive director, PGC, stated, "With the recent change in regulations in the state of Delaware, the only state that entirely prohibits the use of semi-automatic rifles for hunting is Pennsylvania." He continued, "Many states, including most of our neighboring states, allow the use of semi-automatic rifles with restrictions to include caliber, magazine capacity, huntable species, and seasons." He explained, "After reviewing the regulations in our neighboring states, there are several key components that we would prefer to see included in the semi-automatic rifle legislation. The most important aspect would be to give the Game Commission the authority to regulate the implementation of semi-automatic rifles for hunting…Part of this authority would be the ability to regulate caliber by species in order to maintain consistency with our existing hunting regulations." He continued, "Another key component would be a magazine capacity limited to five rounds. This does not include one round in the chamber, so the total carrying capacity would be limited to six rounds. A magazine capacity of five rounds would allow for quick follow-up shots that advocates want, while minimizing the safety and humane harvest concerns." He noted, "One of the primary concerns we have heard is in regard to the use of semi-automatic rifles during the big game seasons. In any legislation, we would like to see the huntable species limited to coyotes, foxes, and woodchucks, and to have the traditional deer, bear, turkey, and elk seasons excluded from the authorized semi-automatic rifle usage regardless of the species."
Rep. Moul asked why the PGC initially prohibited semi-automatic rifles. Hough said, "back then, they were not that reliable." He continued that semi-automatic rifles have improved dramatically since.
Rep. Moul asked if the use of semi-automatic rifles would reduce the number of injured animals. Hough said yes, because it would allow for a quicker follow up shot.
Rep. Maloney if the legislature or the PGC should determine what species can be hunted with a semi-automatic rifle. Hough said the PGC supports either approach, but noted that it is the PGC's belief that coyotes, foxes and woodchucks need to be included, if the legislature makes the determination.
Rep. Maloney asked if it is true that more hunting related accidents have taken place with a shotgun, and not a rifle. A PGC staff member said that is correct.
Rep. Kortz asked if the authority is given to the PGC, whether it would vote to include other species at a later date. Hough explained the PGC board would want to start out conservative with coyote, woodchucks and foxes.
Rep. Moul asked if the semi-automatic rifles would give the hunter an unfair advantage. Hough said the PGC is not concerned about semi-automatic rifles providing an unfair advantage. He noted that the PGC is concerned about the closing of some privately owned game lands if semi-automatic are legalized for hunting. He stated the potential closings are the result of the public's misperception of semi-automatic weapons.
Rep. Miller asked if the PGC clearly supports one of the bills over the other. Hough said the PGC does not support one over the other as long as the PGC has the ability to regulate. Hough noted that during PGC discussions on the legislation, it was determined that HB 223 would give define regulatory powers to the PGC, whereas HB 366 was "too open."
Chairman Gillespie asked about the general perception of the public with regard to the potential change in the law. Hough said the PGC is concerned about hunting coyote, because a coyote hunter hunts at night without reflective gear, which could startle some people when they see an individual dressed in camouflage holding a military style rifle. He added that the PGC is concerned about that perception, but would be able to handle it.
On the magazine capacity, Chairman Gillespie asked where the PGC stands. Hough stated one in the chamber and five in the magazine.
Chairman Gillespie asked if the PGC supports the use of semi-automatic rifles to hunt small game. Hough said that matter still needs to be looked into.
