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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2015 17:37:34 GMT -5
Good time to drill if you have the money - some don't! The ones that don't will be consolidated into other companies. Glad you now understand denny!
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Post by davet on May 17, 2015 18:33:16 GMT -5
Dave& Blue What that statement says is exactly what you are both now saying that the tax will make no difference to market pricing. Anyone who believes that it will is not dealing with the reality of the market. I can't type it any slower than that. LOL. It's this simple: Impose the tax. If the drilling stops, we are back to square one. So what? But you and I know the drilling won't stop.
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Post by timberdoodle on May 17, 2015 18:44:22 GMT -5
No it's this simple. keep the impact fee. it's enacted doing well, bringing in money to areas affected and some to other areas as well.
Now that's real simple!
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Post by dennyf on May 17, 2015 19:50:01 GMT -5
thumbsup
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Post by buzz on May 17, 2015 20:18:50 GMT -5
No it's this simple. keep the impact fee. it's enacted doing well, bringing in money to areas affected and some to other areas as well. Now that's real simple!
Yes It is, but it does not appease the whiners from southeast Pa who don't see as much of the money ..........
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Post by bowbum on May 18, 2015 10:15:22 GMT -5
Actually, Jim, if PA were to enact a severance tax I would expect to see the market price of NG not move at all on that news alone. The overall flow of revenues would just shift to the Commonwealth's benefit. BTW, to all seeking fairness in taxes; I don't think it will ever happen. Is it really, really fair that some landowners got much better lease/royalty agreements from the energy companies than others based on timing, location and representation? Life's not fair! Get used to it! Like I answered you before, I have yet to see anyone give a damn about the income/capital gain taxes I pay in my business. It's all about "whose ox is being gored"! Blue, I have to say I am really disappointed in learning from your comments where your sense of "fair" is based or not present! This is not about "fairness in taxes" as a general theme. This is about a "new" form of taxation that, based on the only criteria od other states doing it, could be applied to many. many industries. Here is a statement made by you that stuns me; "Is it really, really fair that some landowners got much better lease/royalty agreements from the energy companies than others based on timing, location and representation? Nobody is complaining about any of that! I signed a lease years ago for $72.00 an acre and 12% royalty. That is about the lowest of any lease bonus and the absolute lowest royalty. The thing is, "I did not have to sign anything." I made a decision based on historic non-explorations after signing a lease and low and behold the industry actually did explore. No one is whining about their own negotiations and your off base comments about your capital gains taxes are simply a smoke screen ...... as most others here who support severance also use false and non applicable information. You, along with all others who see some sort of perverted justice in taking from others, will not put an honest answer to the questions: If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for farming? Our food source. If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for logging? Our construction and decorating materials. If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for iron ore mining? Every car or truck and most other things we purchase. If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for mining of copper, platinum, gold and other minerals? Electrical construction, jewelry and a multitude of other things. If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for textiles? Clothing, home decor, carpet and everything to bandages and filters. If a gas severance tax is justified, is it also justified for quarrying? Concrete, mortar, drywall spackle, stone for roads and landscaping, plus a zillion other things. Do these questions seem silly? Of course they do, but no more silly than to think that a severance tax is justified because some other states, many who don't even produce natural gas, and others who provide exemptions.....have it!
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Post by bowbum on May 18, 2015 10:30:43 GMT -5
No it's this simple. keep the impact fee. it's enacted doing well, bringing in money to areas affected and some to other areas as well. Now that's real simple! Well said. The hundreds of millions from impact fees have and do benefit all Pennsylvanians. Someone also asked if impact fees come out of royalties? The short answer is "NO" they are not supposed to be against land owners. The truth of the matter is that when impact fees went into affect ....within a very short time royalty owners started seeing "new deductions" on their statements for downstream costs of production, gathering and marketing! Practically everyone here has noted at one time or another how slippery, untrustworthy and just plain dishonest big business is. There have been and are still in progress several lawsuits because of these inflated and invented new costs to landowners that came up following impact fee implementation. While I detest the taking advantage of royalty owners, I still wholeheartedly support this industry because I see every single day enormous advances to our area in educational, employment, social, municipal and personal benefits. I just had our AC units serviced this morning and the one technician was telling me his daughter and son in law were about to file bankruptcy and lose their home 5 years ago because the sawmill he worked in went belly up. He got hired on by a well pad service company who trained him and he now makes over $90,000 a year and his wife works in the office of another well pad supply company. They paid their house off. These stories are commonplace. Both of my wife's grandsons worked during high school for gas related support industries and after graduating went to work in the industry. I've just seen so much good come from the industry that I shutter at those who whine simply because they are not educated or because they have a bone to chew because they ain't getting no ditties. Their entire theme is; "other states do it." (A theme rejected by the same people when it comes to other issues)
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2015 11:14:46 GMT -5
"Their entire theme is; "other states do it." (A theme rejected by the same people when it comes to other issues)"
Can't paint me with that one, bowbum, as I fully support Sunday hunting!
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Post by bawanajim on May 18, 2015 11:20:50 GMT -5
Heck even I support Sunday hunting, in every one of the other 49 states.
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Post by bowbum on May 18, 2015 12:12:21 GMT -5
"Their entire theme is; "other states do it." (A theme rejected by the same people when it comes to other issues)"
Can't paint me with that one, bowbum, as I fully support Sunday hunting!
I also am fully supportive of SH. I'm just saying that the criteria of "others do it" is something our mothers, if they were responsible, should have ingrained in us .....as no reason to also do what others do. This severance tax brings out the ugliest traits in people. Most of what is stated simply says; as long as you are taking it from those folks who have the industry and not me.......I like it. If it were to be applied to "their" livelihood source, it would be a different story.
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Post by bowbum on May 18, 2015 16:19:05 GMT -5
Oh, by the way, in some states that do have severance tax it "DOES" come right out of the royalty owners check. I doubt Pennsylvania has any safeguards against that, since they don't even enforce the 12.5% minimum rule that is on the books.
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Post by davet on May 19, 2015 5:37:05 GMT -5
Oh, by the way, in some states that do have severance tax it "DOES" come right out of the royalty owners check. I doubt Pennsylvania has any safeguards against that, since they don't even enforce the 12.5% minimum rule that is on the books. What's that saying? Oh yeah......figures don't lie....but lier's figure: Drillers have 12.5% Royalty minimum on their side
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Post by bowbum on May 19, 2015 8:35:37 GMT -5
Oh, by the way, in some states that do have severance tax it "DOES" come right out of the royalty owners check. I doubt Pennsylvania has any safeguards against that, since they don't even enforce the 12.5% minimum rule that is on the books. What's that saying? Oh yeah......figures don't lie....but lier's figure: Drillers have 12.5% Royalty minimum on their sideI talked with a person involved in litigation against the industry, (phony deductions), and he was very candid. He told me that there is, (in the gas industry), open acknowledgement of exaggerating costs, creating costs and manipulating the business structure,;.....selling assets only to re-structure those assets under a spin off and then charging themselves exorbitant fees for transmission, equipment rental, marketing etc. so that they can reduce the "net profit" thus get out of paying royalty owners their true share. They openly do this because they realize most owners are glad for whatever unplanned and unexpected income they receive and they won't want to jeopardize the process by joining a lawsuit. Also, when they are sued and they "will" settle, most likely they will only pay a fractional amount of what they saved over thousands of wells for a period of years. It's a win-win for them. Again, the natural gas industry is the best thing in the economic history of this region but, for whatever good comes of it, dem buggers are still big business.............
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Post by davet on May 19, 2015 13:20:03 GMT -5
Again, the natural gas industry is the best thing in the economic history of this region but, for whatever good comes of it, dem buggers are still big business............. So, impose the severance tax. They won't go anywhere.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 15:27:36 GMT -5
"Again, the natural gas industry is the best thing in the economic history of this region but, for whatever good comes of it, dem buggers are still big business............."
People once thought that of the timber industry. People once thought that of the dairy farming industry. People once thought that of the steel/coal industry in SWPA. People once thought that in the NEPA anthracite region. And on, and on and..... The petroleum energy industry in PA will also, eventually, run its course. The legacy of the industry will be established by how future generations view its long term impact on the Commonwealth; socially, economically and environmentally. What we do, or don't do, right now may play a huge role in shaping that legacy. Having grown up in the Lackawanna Valley, I hope it ends up better than the anthracite industry did! However, Scranton can lay claim to helping form both Hillary and Joe Biden. LOL 'Nuff said.
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Post by buzz on May 19, 2015 16:57:36 GMT -5
" People once thought that of the timber industry. People once thought that of the dairy farming industry. People once thought that of the steel/coal industry in SWPA. People once thought that in the NEPA anthracite region. And on, and on and....."
So do we need to put a severance tax on all those industry's to ?
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Post by davet on May 19, 2015 17:23:48 GMT -5
" People once thought that of the timber industry. People once thought that of the dairy farming industry. People once thought that of the steel/coal industry in SWPA. People once thought that in the NEPA anthracite region. And on, and on and....."
So do we need to put a severance tax on all those industry's to ?
Does any other state impose a severance tax on timber? Coal? Dairy farming? Steel making?
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2015 17:32:36 GMT -5
A severance tax on coal, with a percentage of the same put into a dedicated fund to address future environmental impacts, would have been a much more financially intelligent approach to the problem of strip mine reclamation, mine cave remediation, mine fire extinguishment, coal silt removal from rivers and mine drainage abatement than what we ended up funding after the fact. Also, if the remainder of the tax was wisely applied to infrastructure investment and education, it may have helped the Commonwealth deal with the economic pressures when the industry died. As philosopher George Santayana famously stated, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"!
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Post by bake545 on May 19, 2015 20:50:32 GMT -5
Who or what industry do we tax when the gas industry dries up? The government seems to have an insatiable appetite to spend money and there is always a crisis that needs more tax money to solve the grave issue at hand. Just once I'd like to see the govt cut unnecessary programs or improve efficiencies to save money like the rest of us do on a daily basis. You can't even cut the growth rate of spending without people screaming, it's crazy.
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Post by Dutch on May 20, 2015 4:51:51 GMT -5
Who or what industry do we tax when the gas industry dries up? The government seems to have an insatiable appetite to spend money and there is always a crisis that needs more tax money to solve the grave issue at hand. Just once I'd like to see the govt cut unnecessary programs or improve efficiencies to save money like the rest of us do on a daily basis. You can't even cut the growth rate of spending without people screaming, it's crazy. Come on Bake, the biggest driver of increased costs here in PA are the PENSIONS. You think they are gonna be cut so we can give tax relief? They CAN'T be cut to give relief, that money is GUARANTEED to come out of the taxpayers pockets, or someones pockets. You think you are ever gonna see the teachers and public workers unions come to the table and offer to cut their retirees pensions in order to take less blood from the turnips? LOL I got a bridge to sell you Bake. Pick any bridge in Pittsburgh.......I have all the titles.
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Post by buzz on May 20, 2015 5:07:19 GMT -5
A severance tax on coal, with a percentage of the same put into a dedicated fund to address future environmental impacts, would have been a much more financially intelligent approach to the problem of strip mine reclamation, mine cave remediation, mine fire extinguishment, coal silt removal from rivers and mine drainage abatement than what we ended up funding after the fact. Also, if the remainder of the tax was wisely applied to infrastructure investment and education, it may have helped the Commonwealth deal with the economic pressures when the industry died. As philosopher George Santayana famously stated, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"!
Neat ideas, problem is it has already been stated that they have no intention of using the money for those things, exception being your "remainder of tax".as some will be spent on education. The tax will be tossed into the general fund and pissed away.
As I an others have stated, why don't we fix the "PROBLEM" and cut spending. The problem is not that we don't have a severance tax....the PROBLEM is to much spending.
As for the argument......" other states do it"................do a quick google search on "stupid laws in each state"...........then tell me once again how Pa should do everything other states do.
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Post by davet on May 20, 2015 6:49:32 GMT -5
When I was a newbie right out of school in 1980, one of my first financial statement audits I was assigned to was a coal company audit in the middle of Pa.. Every piece of coal was ran through the tipple's and of course, weighed. In addition, every ton of coal was charged a "reclamation tax" that was paid to the Federal Government. The tax was as it said. Reclamation Tax. This tax was used to reclaim any coal lands that were abandoned and left for "dead".
You can scream cut the spending all you want. And I agree with that philosophy 110%. But that has nothing to do with letting revenues slip through your hands.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 7:01:18 GMT -5
Perhaps this oversimplifies things, but it is my opinion that Wolf is now governor of Pennsylvania because the former governor refused to consider imposition of a severance tax in order to pay off campaign contributions from the gas industry. That may not be exactly and totally true, but the perception was exactly that case. Couple that with the extreme opposition to the republican party on the part of PSEA and AFSCME and you have the recipe for a republican loss of the governorship.
As to the original post in this thread, I would expect exactly that from the organization whose position it is, but we really need some facts to back up that position. Perhaps an example of a state in which a severance tax was imposed and the drilling for gas or oil ended?
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Post by bowbum on May 20, 2015 8:36:37 GMT -5
"Again, the natural gas industry is the best thing in the economic history of this region but, for whatever good comes of it, dem buggers are still big business............." People once thought that of the timber industry. People once thought that of the dairy farming industry. People once thought that of the steel/coal industry in SWPA. People once thought that in the NEPA anthracite region. And on, and on and..... The petroleum energy industry in PA will also, eventually, run its course. The legacy of the industry will be established by how future generations view its long term impact on the Commonwealth; socially, economically and environmentally. What we do, or don't do, right now may play a huge role in shaping that legacy. Having grown up in the Lackawanna Valley, I hope it ends up better than the anthracite industry did! However, Scranton can lay claim to helping form both Hillary and Joe Biden. LOL 'Nuff said. People, (you and others), love to associate gas drilling in PA. with ventures of the past that left scars while building America's infrastructure. It is the "fear factor" of "supposition" association. There is no history of "ANY" other industry having been so researched, so regulated, so overseen or so monitored and measured. That didn't happen with coal or timber nor iron ore mining or manufacture. But it is a classic trick to make a blind association in order to dredge up fears. The good that comes from this industry is not only an economic one for employment but also helps toward America's fuel independence and is positive toward the environment in the manner of much cleaner energy. I say again. most who are vehement or staunchly against it are obvious by their choice of comments that are entirely negative. It's telling that those comments are strictly negative and I question the sincerity of anyone who cannot temper their concerns with an admission that; ...."well, hey there actually is a lot of good coming from this industry......." I just can't buy into "maybe could be" as the overriding logic. There absolutely is no guarantee of any outcome with any venture. Every discovery, every miracle of science, every improvement to our lives came from people who assessed the known and reasonable factors and went forward. This industry is no exception.
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Post by bowbum on May 20, 2015 8:53:17 GMT -5
Perhaps an example of a state in which a severance tax was imposed and the drilling for gas or oil ended? There is no state where a severance tax has ended oil or gas drilling and I doubt that most reasonable people are predicting that outcome. Production may be curtailed or targeted to higher value producing wells, as the basic logic of business certainly would dictate. On a personal note, for me it is largely about the mantra that; 'other states do it therefore it must be good." That philosophy is infantile in it's concept......( I refer to our mothers telling us that just because Johnny, or Adolph, did it doesn't mean we should.) Aside from a repulsion with the copy cat logic is the fundamental right or wrong with Pennsylvania providing incentives to business to move here by "tax advantages" ........while in the case of one of the most beneficial industries in history......proposing a tax burden. I'll ad that, in states where severance is applied, some are on the books but not actually applied and some provide variances and exceptions, based in employment etc. Additionally, it is the landowner, (private citizen), in many cases who ends up paying the tax in the form of deductions from their owed royalty. Nobody seems to care about that. Especially in light of the fact that PA. does not uphold it's own criteria for royalty payment now. Who is gonna believe they would protect citizens against the severance being taken out of their paychecks? So, again, I maintain it simply is people thinking they can benefit from the sacrifice of others, whether those others be private citizens or business that gets an opposite treatment from any and all other businesses. The telling thing is so obvious that not one single person here who supports severance will address the above observations in an objective, unbiased manner.
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