Post by pfsc on May 13, 2015 9:38:04 GMT -5
House Game and Fisheries Committee
5/12/15, 9:00 a.m., G-50 Irvis
By Trevor J. Monk, PLS
The committee held a public hearing on House Bill 231.
HB 231 Mullery, Gerald - (PN 225) Amends Title 34 (Game) adding language authorizing the sale of antlerless deer licenses through the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System. Effective in 60 days.
John Kline, government liaison, Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), said the PFSC held its annual spring convention in March 2015 to discuss a wide variety of issues related to conservation topics. "Part of the annual convention process is to address and vote on current matters that affect our members and their outdoor interests," Kline continued. "One of the topics discussed and voted on in March was House Bill 231. After a lengthy discussion, a vote to support House Bill 231 was adopted," he said. Kline stated this is not the first instance the PFSC has supported removing the county treasurers from the antlerless license issuance process. He explained the Federation has been on record in support of returning this process to the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) since the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System (PALS) and Wildlife Management Units were first implemented. Kline explained the PFSC belief that the commission should be solely responsible for the licensing process. Kline recalled "Allocation of antlerless licenses was the responsibility of the Game Commission, and distribution of these licenses was the responsibility of the county treasurers." He continued the process was logical when the issuance of all licenses had to be "hand processed" and the antlerless tags were issued on a county-wide basis. He said when the PGC introduced PALS, both the Game and Fish and Boat Commissions took a huge step towards modernizing the license issuing process. "Even though antlerless deer license allocations had no county boundaries whatsoever, the county treasurers were, and still are, responsible for issuance of these licenses because it is still legislatively mandated," Kline asserted. "This current process is antiquated," he said, "Adoption of House Bill 231 would save the Game Commission time and money, and would relieve the county treasurers of the burden of the antlerless issuance process." In closing, Kline expressed the PFSC view that HB 231 as a "logical and frankly past due change."
Rep. Mullery asked what was said at the March convention in opposition to the legislation. Kline said the drive to adopt the support is its convenience. He said the opposition questioned the need for additional steps. Rep. Mullery asked if the licenses should be on a first come first serve basis. Kline stated the PFSC's belief that it is the job of the PGC to distribute the licenses. He explained the belief of some members that licenses should be issued on the spot, while others believe it should be lottery based. Rep. Mullery asked if the PFSC has contacted other states with a similar automated licensing system on the successfulness of the systems implementation. Kline answered the PFSC did not reach out to other states. Rep. Mullery asked how the delegates' votes are weighted. Kline explained the individual members are represented by the members at large.
Rep. Maloney said the PFSC represents approximately 70,000 women and men, and asked how many delegates voted. Kline said 101 votes were cast at the 2015 spring convention. He said 60 voted in the positive with one abstention. Rep. Maloney stated the number of delegates is small compared to the overall number of sportsmen in the Commonwealth. Kline said that is correct. Rep. Maloney stated there are many sportsmen that would like to return to a bi-county licensing allocation. He explained the intent of the legislation is to remove the county treasurers from the process, which he said sends a mixed message.
Craig Ebersole, treasurer for the county of Lancaster and the spokesperson for the County Treasurer's Association of Pennsylvania (CTAP), stated, "On most occasions, I favor legislation that is brief as opposed to lengthy or convoluted, but in the case of HB 231, its brevity, lack of implementation methodology, and carte blanche mentality are the most worrisome components." He continued, "HB 231 specifically mentions using the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System. County Treasurers…have been using the PALS system for many years, and have watched it crash, virtually every year." Ebersole recalled a workshop CTAP held in State College last October. At the workshop, he explained, a representative from the PGC stated the PGC was "bouncing several ideas around" when asked about the distribution methodology of antlerless deer permits. "I hope that they have a plan, and simply did not wish to share their plan at that time," he continued, "I hope their plan will benefit the hunters of our Commonwealth and not penalize our counties of $750,000 in annual revenue, to the benefit of a large company in Arkansas." He expressed his belief, "If the plan was for all on-line sales, it would discriminate against the elderly, the poor and the 'Plain' communities found in Lancaster County and many other agricultural areas of the Commonwealth." Ebersole said, "Right now, it just feels like they want to wrestle antlerless deer permits away from the Counties and then develop a plan for step number two." He said the CTAP is concerned about the hunter, and about the details of the distribution method. In closing Ebersole said "We once again extend our hand to go the second mile with the PGC and send a small committee to meet with the PGC, share our knowledge and thoughts from decades of selling antlerless deer permits, and seeking an efficient, economical solution that works for all parties, but most importantly our shared constituent, the hunters of Pennsylvania."
Rep. Mullery asked if Pennsylvania's current licensing process is right, and every other state using a PALS system is doing it wrong. Ebersole said that is not correct, but there is a better solution than what is proposed in the legislation. Rep. Mullery asked if Ebersole understood that "small mom and pop" stores are still able to sell antlerless deer licenses, and not just "big box stores." Ebersole answered not as many as Wal-Mart.
Rep. Mullery asked if there are regulations promulgated in the bill that CTAP would be comfortable with. Ebersole stated the PALS system is already in place, and requested the current system be left alone. Rep. Mullery asked if the idea of revenue neutral sales and issuance has been discussed. Ebersole stated there were "frank and open discussions" about what CTAP sees moving forward. He asserted if the sale of antlerless deer licenses is taken away from county treasurers, regular hunting licenses would no longer be sold through county treasurers offices. Rep. Mullery asked if Ebersole has ever heard of county treasurers taking the revenues from the application process of antlerless deer tags, and redirecting the revenues to a political appointee. Ebersole said "not at all." He said "money is green, and knows no party."
Rep. Mullery asked if the passage of HB 231 would result in a gross loss of $750,000. Ebersole said no. Rep. Mullery asked if the counties realize every single dollar that comes from the antlerless deer application process. Ebersole stated he did not know how Philadelphia County handles the revenue collections. He said the other counties handle it however the elected officials see fit. Rep. Mullery opined, "so the answer to my question is 'you have no idea what the potential revenue impact is for the 67 counties'?" Ebersole replied, "Can I quantify it right here? No."
Rep. Moul asked if he wants an antlerless deer license, how it would be obtained. Ebersole said the application for an antlerless deer licenses comes with the general hunting license, and would be sent to the county treasurer via mail. Rep. Moul asked when the licenses are distributed. Ebersole said there is a strict date the applications can be sent. He said if it is sent in early it will be returned. Rep. Moul asked how the county treasurers determine who get an antlerless deer license if there are more application than there are licenses. Ebersole said the number of available applications can be looked at online and noted the licenses do not immediately sell out either. He added that it is also based on the number of Wildlife Management Units (WMUs). Rep. Moul asked how the county treasurers know if the WMUs are sold out. Ebersole stated the information is available online. Rep. Moul asked would it not make sense to allow the hunters to have access to the online system and PALS so it is instantaneous. Ebersole said there are other alternatives besides what is proposed in the legislation. Rep. Moul opined the intent of the legislation is to provide for a more modern and up to date system. Rep. Moul asked if CTAP would be opposed to keeping the system the same and giving all residents in the county a portion of the revenues. Ebersole explained that hunters are a shared constituent. Rep. Moul recognized that CTAP just wants to be part of the process.
Referring to Rep. Mullery's previous comment related to the licensing revenues being used for political appointees, Rep. Peifer questioned the maker of the legislation's intent. He explained his counties are not involved in that type of behavior. He continued that if something is going on in other counties it needs to be addressed specifically, and requested that his counties be left out of the issue.
Rep. Maloney asked if the current process suffered because the WMUs were changed in the geographical locations they serve. Ebersole stated "it was impactful." Rep. Maloney asked if it was possible to revert back to a county by county allocation system and still use PALS. Ebersole stated "It would be a possibility."
Rep. English asked if the county treasurers enter the mailed application information into a computer system. Ebersole said the information is entered electronically. Rep. English asked what the difference is between the county treasurers and the automated system. Referring to his belief that the legislation is vague, Ebersole stated that is what CTAP is trying to find out.
In response to Rep. Peifer's previous comment, Rep. Mullery stated he did not reference specific any areas and made reference to the Commonwealth as a whole. He recalled being approached by three House members with those concerns. Rep. Mullery said the intent of the legislation is to remove the "middle man." He said, "It is time to treat our hunters appropriately.
Chairman Gillespie asked how the current system is more convenient then a process that gives hunters all their tags at the same time. Ebersole said that is yet to be seen. He said the legislation is vague and there are no details about the convenience. Chairman Gillespie asked if the "antiquated system" that used carbon copies and hand written applications needed updated at the time. Ebersole said yes it needed to be updated; it was an antiquated system.
Matthew Hough, executive director, PGC, stated, "I would like to state up front and for the record that the PA Game Commission is in support of this much anticipated and long overdue legislation." He asserted, "The fact of the matter is that after all of these years, the current antlerless license system is still confusing to many hunters, with no reason other than this is the way it has always been done and hunters are growing tired of this cumbersome process." He continued, hunters "want to be able to purchase their doe tags online or over the counter when they visit one of our issuing agents and purchase every other tag and permit." He explained, "This also eliminates the extended waiting game: waiting to find out if you were awarded a doe tag or not; waiting for your check to be processed; and waiting for that doe tag to arrive in the mail." He added that moving to PALS would allow hunters to know if there are antlerless tags available for purchase in the WMU they are interested in hunting.
Relating to the availability of the licenses, Hough said, "The idea of having a first come, first served system is of great importance to our hunters. Some may argue that the current system with the county treasurers is first come, first served." He continued, "In actuality, that is simply not the case, and I would argue that the proposed automated system would in fact be much closer to a true first come, first served system." Hough noted, "Not all antlerless licenses will be sold online. The 750 issuing agents located across the Commonwealth will continue to operate as they currently do with one exception, they will now be able to issue antlerless licenses over the counter." He added that also includes the 65 county treasurers who are also issuing agents. On the cost of the proposed change, Hough said, "With any new idea or proposal, the question of cost always comes up. What will the impact of this change be to the agency and even more importantly, what will the impact be to the consumer- the Pennsylvania hunter. In this particular case, there is actually going to be a savings for both." In closing he said, "Today's hunters want this change to take place and have been asking for it for years. We believe the Pennsylvania Automated License System is certainly capable of handling it and it is time to bring the antlerless license process into the 21st century."
Rep. Mullery asked how long the transition to the new system would take. Hough said it would be effective for the 2016 hunting season. Rep. Mullery asked who would receive the dollar fee. Hough said the issuing agent would receive the fee. Rep. Mullery asked how many licenses are sold by the county treasurers. Hough said he would be able to supply that information to the committee. Rep. Mullery asked what the first WMUs that sell out are. Hough said zone 2G and 2H.
Rep. Moul asked if the hunters were surveyed. Hough said an antlerless deer license specific survey was not conducted, but a general license survey was conducted and the results favored an automated system. Rep. Moul asked, on average, how much revenue would be lost. Hough said each county would lose an average of $11,000 per county.
Rep. English asked if the process should be first come, first serve, or if it should be determined by a luck of the draw. Hough explained licenses can be obtained over the counter, online, or by mail. He expressed his hope that people with realize that they do not have to wait in line. He said some people will have to wait in line at the store due to religious beliefs. Rep. English asked how many licenses can be ordered online. Hough answered three at a time.
Rep. Peifer asked if there is an additional cost for antlerless deer licenses, and what the additional fee is used for. Hough explained there is an additional fee to cover the costs of PALS. Rep. Heffley inquired about the average age of people applying for antlerless deer licenses. Hough replied 50-plus years of age. Rep. Heffley stated some people may not want to order the license on a computer and expressed his concern that it will isolate certain people. Hough explained that licenses can still be purchased over the counter. Rep. Heffley expressed his concern with people waiting in line.
Rep. Heffley expressed further concerns with giving PGC additional authority. He stated the county treasurers should be the voice of the people who they are elected by. Rep. Heffley stated he is leaning toward keeping the system the same.
Rep. Harkins said it is important to remember new hunters applying for licenses. Hough said there will be a large educational effort for new hunters.
5/12/15, 9:00 a.m., G-50 Irvis
By Trevor J. Monk, PLS
The committee held a public hearing on House Bill 231.
HB 231 Mullery, Gerald - (PN 225) Amends Title 34 (Game) adding language authorizing the sale of antlerless deer licenses through the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System. Effective in 60 days.
John Kline, government liaison, Pennsylvania Federation of Sportsmen's Clubs (PFSC), said the PFSC held its annual spring convention in March 2015 to discuss a wide variety of issues related to conservation topics. "Part of the annual convention process is to address and vote on current matters that affect our members and their outdoor interests," Kline continued. "One of the topics discussed and voted on in March was House Bill 231. After a lengthy discussion, a vote to support House Bill 231 was adopted," he said. Kline stated this is not the first instance the PFSC has supported removing the county treasurers from the antlerless license issuance process. He explained the Federation has been on record in support of returning this process to the Pennsylvania Game Commission (PGC) since the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System (PALS) and Wildlife Management Units were first implemented. Kline explained the PFSC belief that the commission should be solely responsible for the licensing process. Kline recalled "Allocation of antlerless licenses was the responsibility of the Game Commission, and distribution of these licenses was the responsibility of the county treasurers." He continued the process was logical when the issuance of all licenses had to be "hand processed" and the antlerless tags were issued on a county-wide basis. He said when the PGC introduced PALS, both the Game and Fish and Boat Commissions took a huge step towards modernizing the license issuing process. "Even though antlerless deer license allocations had no county boundaries whatsoever, the county treasurers were, and still are, responsible for issuance of these licenses because it is still legislatively mandated," Kline asserted. "This current process is antiquated," he said, "Adoption of House Bill 231 would save the Game Commission time and money, and would relieve the county treasurers of the burden of the antlerless issuance process." In closing, Kline expressed the PFSC view that HB 231 as a "logical and frankly past due change."
Rep. Mullery asked what was said at the March convention in opposition to the legislation. Kline said the drive to adopt the support is its convenience. He said the opposition questioned the need for additional steps. Rep. Mullery asked if the licenses should be on a first come first serve basis. Kline stated the PFSC's belief that it is the job of the PGC to distribute the licenses. He explained the belief of some members that licenses should be issued on the spot, while others believe it should be lottery based. Rep. Mullery asked if the PFSC has contacted other states with a similar automated licensing system on the successfulness of the systems implementation. Kline answered the PFSC did not reach out to other states. Rep. Mullery asked how the delegates' votes are weighted. Kline explained the individual members are represented by the members at large.
Rep. Maloney said the PFSC represents approximately 70,000 women and men, and asked how many delegates voted. Kline said 101 votes were cast at the 2015 spring convention. He said 60 voted in the positive with one abstention. Rep. Maloney stated the number of delegates is small compared to the overall number of sportsmen in the Commonwealth. Kline said that is correct. Rep. Maloney stated there are many sportsmen that would like to return to a bi-county licensing allocation. He explained the intent of the legislation is to remove the county treasurers from the process, which he said sends a mixed message.
Craig Ebersole, treasurer for the county of Lancaster and the spokesperson for the County Treasurer's Association of Pennsylvania (CTAP), stated, "On most occasions, I favor legislation that is brief as opposed to lengthy or convoluted, but in the case of HB 231, its brevity, lack of implementation methodology, and carte blanche mentality are the most worrisome components." He continued, "HB 231 specifically mentions using the Pennsylvania Automated Licensing System. County Treasurers…have been using the PALS system for many years, and have watched it crash, virtually every year." Ebersole recalled a workshop CTAP held in State College last October. At the workshop, he explained, a representative from the PGC stated the PGC was "bouncing several ideas around" when asked about the distribution methodology of antlerless deer permits. "I hope that they have a plan, and simply did not wish to share their plan at that time," he continued, "I hope their plan will benefit the hunters of our Commonwealth and not penalize our counties of $750,000 in annual revenue, to the benefit of a large company in Arkansas." He expressed his belief, "If the plan was for all on-line sales, it would discriminate against the elderly, the poor and the 'Plain' communities found in Lancaster County and many other agricultural areas of the Commonwealth." Ebersole said, "Right now, it just feels like they want to wrestle antlerless deer permits away from the Counties and then develop a plan for step number two." He said the CTAP is concerned about the hunter, and about the details of the distribution method. In closing Ebersole said "We once again extend our hand to go the second mile with the PGC and send a small committee to meet with the PGC, share our knowledge and thoughts from decades of selling antlerless deer permits, and seeking an efficient, economical solution that works for all parties, but most importantly our shared constituent, the hunters of Pennsylvania."
Rep. Mullery asked if Pennsylvania's current licensing process is right, and every other state using a PALS system is doing it wrong. Ebersole said that is not correct, but there is a better solution than what is proposed in the legislation. Rep. Mullery asked if Ebersole understood that "small mom and pop" stores are still able to sell antlerless deer licenses, and not just "big box stores." Ebersole answered not as many as Wal-Mart.
Rep. Mullery asked if there are regulations promulgated in the bill that CTAP would be comfortable with. Ebersole stated the PALS system is already in place, and requested the current system be left alone. Rep. Mullery asked if the idea of revenue neutral sales and issuance has been discussed. Ebersole stated there were "frank and open discussions" about what CTAP sees moving forward. He asserted if the sale of antlerless deer licenses is taken away from county treasurers, regular hunting licenses would no longer be sold through county treasurers offices. Rep. Mullery asked if Ebersole has ever heard of county treasurers taking the revenues from the application process of antlerless deer tags, and redirecting the revenues to a political appointee. Ebersole said "not at all." He said "money is green, and knows no party."
Rep. Mullery asked if the passage of HB 231 would result in a gross loss of $750,000. Ebersole said no. Rep. Mullery asked if the counties realize every single dollar that comes from the antlerless deer application process. Ebersole stated he did not know how Philadelphia County handles the revenue collections. He said the other counties handle it however the elected officials see fit. Rep. Mullery opined, "so the answer to my question is 'you have no idea what the potential revenue impact is for the 67 counties'?" Ebersole replied, "Can I quantify it right here? No."
Rep. Moul asked if he wants an antlerless deer license, how it would be obtained. Ebersole said the application for an antlerless deer licenses comes with the general hunting license, and would be sent to the county treasurer via mail. Rep. Moul asked when the licenses are distributed. Ebersole said there is a strict date the applications can be sent. He said if it is sent in early it will be returned. Rep. Moul asked how the county treasurers determine who get an antlerless deer license if there are more application than there are licenses. Ebersole said the number of available applications can be looked at online and noted the licenses do not immediately sell out either. He added that it is also based on the number of Wildlife Management Units (WMUs). Rep. Moul asked how the county treasurers know if the WMUs are sold out. Ebersole stated the information is available online. Rep. Moul asked would it not make sense to allow the hunters to have access to the online system and PALS so it is instantaneous. Ebersole said there are other alternatives besides what is proposed in the legislation. Rep. Moul opined the intent of the legislation is to provide for a more modern and up to date system. Rep. Moul asked if CTAP would be opposed to keeping the system the same and giving all residents in the county a portion of the revenues. Ebersole explained that hunters are a shared constituent. Rep. Moul recognized that CTAP just wants to be part of the process.
Referring to Rep. Mullery's previous comment related to the licensing revenues being used for political appointees, Rep. Peifer questioned the maker of the legislation's intent. He explained his counties are not involved in that type of behavior. He continued that if something is going on in other counties it needs to be addressed specifically, and requested that his counties be left out of the issue.
Rep. Maloney asked if the current process suffered because the WMUs were changed in the geographical locations they serve. Ebersole stated "it was impactful." Rep. Maloney asked if it was possible to revert back to a county by county allocation system and still use PALS. Ebersole stated "It would be a possibility."
Rep. English asked if the county treasurers enter the mailed application information into a computer system. Ebersole said the information is entered electronically. Rep. English asked what the difference is between the county treasurers and the automated system. Referring to his belief that the legislation is vague, Ebersole stated that is what CTAP is trying to find out.
In response to Rep. Peifer's previous comment, Rep. Mullery stated he did not reference specific any areas and made reference to the Commonwealth as a whole. He recalled being approached by three House members with those concerns. Rep. Mullery said the intent of the legislation is to remove the "middle man." He said, "It is time to treat our hunters appropriately.
Chairman Gillespie asked how the current system is more convenient then a process that gives hunters all their tags at the same time. Ebersole said that is yet to be seen. He said the legislation is vague and there are no details about the convenience. Chairman Gillespie asked if the "antiquated system" that used carbon copies and hand written applications needed updated at the time. Ebersole said yes it needed to be updated; it was an antiquated system.
Matthew Hough, executive director, PGC, stated, "I would like to state up front and for the record that the PA Game Commission is in support of this much anticipated and long overdue legislation." He asserted, "The fact of the matter is that after all of these years, the current antlerless license system is still confusing to many hunters, with no reason other than this is the way it has always been done and hunters are growing tired of this cumbersome process." He continued, hunters "want to be able to purchase their doe tags online or over the counter when they visit one of our issuing agents and purchase every other tag and permit." He explained, "This also eliminates the extended waiting game: waiting to find out if you were awarded a doe tag or not; waiting for your check to be processed; and waiting for that doe tag to arrive in the mail." He added that moving to PALS would allow hunters to know if there are antlerless tags available for purchase in the WMU they are interested in hunting.
Relating to the availability of the licenses, Hough said, "The idea of having a first come, first served system is of great importance to our hunters. Some may argue that the current system with the county treasurers is first come, first served." He continued, "In actuality, that is simply not the case, and I would argue that the proposed automated system would in fact be much closer to a true first come, first served system." Hough noted, "Not all antlerless licenses will be sold online. The 750 issuing agents located across the Commonwealth will continue to operate as they currently do with one exception, they will now be able to issue antlerless licenses over the counter." He added that also includes the 65 county treasurers who are also issuing agents. On the cost of the proposed change, Hough said, "With any new idea or proposal, the question of cost always comes up. What will the impact of this change be to the agency and even more importantly, what will the impact be to the consumer- the Pennsylvania hunter. In this particular case, there is actually going to be a savings for both." In closing he said, "Today's hunters want this change to take place and have been asking for it for years. We believe the Pennsylvania Automated License System is certainly capable of handling it and it is time to bring the antlerless license process into the 21st century."
Rep. Mullery asked how long the transition to the new system would take. Hough said it would be effective for the 2016 hunting season. Rep. Mullery asked who would receive the dollar fee. Hough said the issuing agent would receive the fee. Rep. Mullery asked how many licenses are sold by the county treasurers. Hough said he would be able to supply that information to the committee. Rep. Mullery asked what the first WMUs that sell out are. Hough said zone 2G and 2H.
Rep. Moul asked if the hunters were surveyed. Hough said an antlerless deer license specific survey was not conducted, but a general license survey was conducted and the results favored an automated system. Rep. Moul asked, on average, how much revenue would be lost. Hough said each county would lose an average of $11,000 per county.
Rep. English asked if the process should be first come, first serve, or if it should be determined by a luck of the draw. Hough explained licenses can be obtained over the counter, online, or by mail. He expressed his hope that people with realize that they do not have to wait in line. He said some people will have to wait in line at the store due to religious beliefs. Rep. English asked how many licenses can be ordered online. Hough answered three at a time.
Rep. Peifer asked if there is an additional cost for antlerless deer licenses, and what the additional fee is used for. Hough explained there is an additional fee to cover the costs of PALS. Rep. Heffley inquired about the average age of people applying for antlerless deer licenses. Hough replied 50-plus years of age. Rep. Heffley stated some people may not want to order the license on a computer and expressed his concern that it will isolate certain people. Hough explained that licenses can still be purchased over the counter. Rep. Heffley expressed his concern with people waiting in line.
Rep. Heffley expressed further concerns with giving PGC additional authority. He stated the county treasurers should be the voice of the people who they are elected by. Rep. Heffley stated he is leaning toward keeping the system the same.
Rep. Harkins said it is important to remember new hunters applying for licenses. Hough said there will be a large educational effort for new hunters.