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Post by Dutch on Apr 9, 2015 5:20:30 GMT -5
Hello all, This is a reminder of the upcoming Grouse Nest Search. My goal is to collect eggs from 3-5 nests statewide (target of 20-30 eggs total), for the purpose of studying the impact of West Nile Virus on PA grouse populations. Below are a few notes to help your search. Please distribute this info to anyone you know who plans to participate in the effort. Thanks! ~Lisa TIMING: I WOULD EXPECT TO START SEEING EGGS IN NESTS AFTER APRIL 21. PRIME TIME FOR SEARCHING WILL BE FROM APRIL 21 THROUGH END OF MAY. (See detailed info below). SEARCH AREA: Check the base of large trees in mature forest that adjoins a drumming area of dense saplings. Walking along deer fencing placed around recent timber harvests may yield results. Borders along gated forest roads can also be productive. NEST LOCATION: The most common location is at the base of a large tree or stump. Nests placed under a log, at the edge of a brush pile or at the base of a boulder or rock ledge are also frequently found. NEST IDENTIFICATION: Nests are roughly 6” across and 2-3” deep. The nest is simply a cup-shaped depression in the forest floor – the hen does not carry materials to build up a structure. EGG IDENTIFICATION: Grouse eggs are creamy ovals, just 1.5” x 1” in size. They are about the size of a ping pong ball or golf ball. They may have pale beige blotches and tend to become dirt smudged over time as more eggs are deposited in the nest. See attached info for distinguishing grouse from turkey eggs. This info is also available on the Game Commission website: www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/ruffed_grouse/14777 in the How You Can Help section. IF A GROUSE NEST WITH EGGS IS LOCATED, PLEASE CONTACT ME IMMEDIATELY VIA PHONE OR EMAIL . PLEASE BE READY TO PROVIDE GPS COORDINATES OR DETAILED LOCATION INFORMATION and ESTIMATE # EGGS IN NEST. I know some of you have already begun keeping your eyes open to spot grouse hens in the hopes of locating a general nesting territory. Thanks for the time you’ve invested so far! If you find a promising area, please do not disturb the site again until late April so that the hen does not abandon the area before you have a chance to look for eggs. Thanks so much! Lisa Williams 814-422-8243 office 814-505-8659 cell liswilliam@pa.gov Average Date of First Egg for an early June hatch: April 21 – 24 Average Start of Incubation – Central PA*: May 7 (but can be ~ 1 week either side of that date) Average Hatch Date – Central PA*: June 1 (but can be ~ 1 week either side of that date) *it is unlikely that timing varies noticeably from northern to southern PA, so dates are statewide estimates. |
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Post by Dutch on Apr 9, 2015 5:23:36 GMT -5
A friend that listened to a presentation by Lisa Williams the other week said they seem pretty concerned about the effect West Nile may be having on grouse populations.
With the serious population decline over the past 20 years, "something" is going on.
They kept harping on the habitat issue, but apparently it may be something else?
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Post by bawanajim on Apr 9, 2015 6:38:30 GMT -5
Sadly I haven't seen or heard a grouse in 10 years on our hill.
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Post by tcaddis on Apr 9, 2015 7:21:03 GMT -5
A friend that listened to a presentation by Lisa Williams the other week said they seem pretty concerned about the effect West Nile may be having on grouse populations. With the serious population decline over the past 20 years, "something" is going on. They kept harping on the habitat issue, but apparently it may be something else? The same study was conducted in MN in 2005. Now mind you that MN does have a 7 year cycle. They took samples from 116 birds. Only one of those showed signs of the antibodies. Is Ms. Williams chasing her tail? I am not sure. The PCG has already taken samples from birds harvested during the RGS Upland Bird hunt in November. It's now April?? Any results?? Call me a guy with foil on my head, but I am not giving here GPS coordinates to anything. I think she goes to far asking cooperator's the WMU, County, and township of birds harvested. With the foil still on my I'd add that I think Ms. Williams is doing more to help the stocking of phez in PA then helping grouse or woodcock. Here is a real interesting question. What would be done if it was found that stocking phez over grouse was the cause for the decline?? Would it be published? Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 8:02:17 GMT -5
No it wouldn't. I think we should spend our efforts on grouse a native species before we spend it on the nonnative pheasant.
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Post by gobblerhunter on Apr 9, 2015 8:02:28 GMT -5
Call me a guy with foil on my head, but I am not giving here GPS coordinates to anything. I think she goes to far asking cooperator's the WMU, County, and township of birds harvested. With the foil still on my I'd add that I think Ms. Williams is doing more to help the stocking of phez in PA then helping grouse or woodcock. Here is a real interesting question. What would be done if it was found that stocking phez over grouse was the cause for the decline?? Would it be published? Just my 2 cents. Well its hard to argue with comments like this Lisa on record - woodcock migrate before the pheasants are stocked a regional director to me - we got to put them somewhere.... and don't worry pheasants stay in the fields and don't go into the woods.... |
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Post by grouse28 on Apr 9, 2015 23:32:59 GMT -5
A 2003 study in Minnesota showed 14% of the 59 grouse and 25% of the 76 woodcock harvested had WNV antibodies in their blood.
That would indicated infected birds that survived. WNV is a rapid killer in birds, (days) and the chances of harvesting a dying bird are slight.
Most hunting is done after mosquitoes activity. There were two ruffed grouse propagators in the state that lost all of their birds in a week or so from WNV. I believe it is a real threat to grouse and woodcock. The game commission through Lisa is trying to scientifically figure it all out. Money is tight. The state's biologists are not real persons in the eyes of the commission. You dare not speak your mind in that environment if you have not drunk the Kool-Aid of the Ross Leffler School of Goose Stepping Enforcers. The PA Game Commission is entirely too politicized and protect their ranks.
If you have not drunk the Kool-Aid you cannot manage anything in the GC. That needs to change. Tcaddis take off the foil and let the sun shine in, btw I have hacked the data for the cooperators grouse and woodcock reports and will share with you the hot townships for both birds next time we meet. I have also attached discrete GPS data loggers on the vehicles of most grouse hunters on this board, that info will cost you. Seriously though I support any effort to improve the numbers of grouse and woodcock.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 4:31:43 GMT -5
Wow! Would you care to comment a bit further?
for the record, I have a lot of respect for the PGC's biologists. I am losing it for the LEO arm.
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Post by Dutch on Apr 10, 2015 5:18:50 GMT -5
Every once in a while Grouse28 goes off the reservation. LOL If I didn't know him so well I'd chalk it off to yet another nutcase, but, he isn't... When he speaks, he generally is pretty accurate. Now I gotta go check my car for that GPS thingy.  |
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Post by gobblerhunter on Apr 10, 2015 6:02:05 GMT -5
I also have a lot of respect for most of the GC, there might be a few bad apples and its become so political that it's kind of sad.
I also am not a believer on the WNV putting a hurting on the grouse population. If i'm wrong and it is, our grouses will be in a world of hurt. I figure with the white nose thing going on w/ the bats equals a lot more mosquitoes. So lets hope im right : )
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Post by tcaddis on Apr 10, 2015 7:36:54 GMT -5
A 2003 study in Minnesota showed 14% of the 59 grouse and 25% of the 76 woodcock harvested had WNV antibodies in their blood. That would indicated infected birds that survived. WNV is a rapid killer in birds, (days) and the chances of harvesting a dying bird are slight. Most hunting is done after mosquitoes activity. There were two ruffed grouse propagators in the state that lost all of their birds in a week or so from WNV. I believe it is a real threat to grouse and woodcock. The game commission through Lisa is trying to scientifically figure it all out. Money is tight. The state's biologists are not real persons in the eyes of the commission. You dare not speak your mind in that environment if you have not drunk the Kool-Aid of the Ross Leffler School of Goose Stepping Enforcers. The PA Game Commission is entirely too politicized and protect their ranks. If you have not drunk the Kool-Aid you cannot manage anything in the GC. That needs to change. Tcaddis take off the foil and let the sun shine in, btw I have hacked the data for the cooperators grouse and woodcock reports and will share with you the hot townships for both birds next time we meet. I have also attached discrete GPS data loggers on the vehicles of most grouse hunters on this board, that info will cost you. Seriously though I support any effort to improve the numbers of grouse and woodcock. What did MN do? In 2005 it was found in 0.8% of the harvest. What was they plan of action. Also, if birds are showing the antibody, wouldn't that be a good thing? Wouldn't a bird with the antibody pass that to it's offspring? Wouldn't this be natures way of righting itself?? Also, the ratio of adult birds to juvenile harvested is 1 to 1 PA. In past year, it has been as high as 3 juvenile to 1 adult. Recruitment seems to be a major issue. Are the hens entering the nesting season healthy enough to produce clutches of healthy birds. Is the season to long that the birds are stress and can't recoup the energy lost due to these pursuits? The last few years the winter has come on later, but has lasted farther into the spring. Is the dawning of a later spring stressing the hens to the point that clutches are small or non existent. WVN is supposed by a big killer of crows. Has PA's crow number dipped drastically? Next time we meet, I tell you a little store about what can happen with that cooperator info. |
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Post by rober on Apr 10, 2015 21:03:35 GMT -5
Sorry PGC, no GPS coordinates from me.
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Post by grouse28 on Apr 11, 2015 20:06:53 GMT -5
one big happy family!!
I know you guys have your reasons.
Funny, though I just was at the Michigan Woodcock Banders Seminar in Roscommon, Michigan.
There were close to 100 banders there, (hunters). They all provide location info on where they band chicks each spring.
Township and direction and distance from nearest town. Their comments were requesting to be able to provide GPS coordinates for simplification of reporting. But then again Michigan is doing great habitat improvements for grouse and woodcock. Their officials in the field are not the Gestapo type we have here in PA or the cushy job types that are just floating along to retirement.
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Post by galthatfishes on Apr 12, 2015 19:47:58 GMT -5
I worked at DEP several years in vector control looking at both black flies and mosquitoes. Later; when looking at EHD, one thing I noted was the EHD outbreak didn't really exist where bti was sprayed as a vector control agent for blackflies and mosquitoes. (BTI is specific to blackflies and mosquitoes.)
I would venture on a limb here and say where bti is sprayed, grouse populations won't be affected as greatly. Good research project for an aspiring wildlife biologist. Just have them quote me, lol.
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Post by tcaddis on Apr 13, 2015 7:46:12 GMT -5
one big happy family!! I know you guys have your reasons. Funny, though I just was at the Michigan Woodcock Banders Seminar in Roscommon, Michigan. There were close to 100 banders there, (hunters). They all provide location info on where they band chicks each spring. Township and direction and distance from nearest town. Their comments were requesting to be able to provide GPS coordinates for simplification of reporting. But then again Michigan is doing great habitat improvements for grouse and woodcock. Their officials in the field are not the Gestapo type we have here in PA or the cushy job types that are just floating along to retirement. Maybe MI is full of mature good for the resource hunters. You know exactly what happen when some woodcock got banded in PA during a research study. You would have thought the individual would have known better, since he work in a game agency. |
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Post by tcaddis on Apr 13, 2015 7:46:25 GMT -5
one big happy family!! I know you guys have your reasons. Funny, though I just was at the Michigan Woodcock Banders Seminar in Roscommon, Michigan. There were close to 100 banders there, (hunters). They all provide location info on where they band chicks each spring. Township and direction and distance from nearest town. Their comments were requesting to be able to provide GPS coordinates for simplification of reporting. But then again Michigan is doing great habitat improvements for grouse and woodcock. Their officials in the field are not the Gestapo type we have here in PA or the cushy job types that are just floating along to retirement. Maybe MI is full of mature good for the resource hunters. You know exactly what happen when some woodcock got banded in PA during a research study. You would have thought the individual would have known better, since he work in a game agency. |
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Post by Dutch on Apr 13, 2015 17:23:35 GMT -5
Ah, now I get what yer sayin' there Tcaddis. You mean the greedy person that killed 11 woodcock or so trying to kill a banded one?
Sad when the head of the enforcement arm of the agency is so greedy that his personal "goal" gets ahead of being a conservationist.
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Post by bawanajim on Apr 13, 2015 19:04:29 GMT -5
We have "hunters" that let geese land in the decoys, so as they can kill the banded ones, and sadly they brag about it.
Shooting a bird on the ground, any bird besides a gobbler, is the surest sign of a slob, there is never an excuse, the birds deserve better, as do the dogs, and over killing woodcock, unforgivable.
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Post by Dutch on Apr 13, 2015 19:09:07 GMT -5
And that is why these guys fear giving any info to the PGC. They fear it will be given to a person like that.
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Post by tcaddis on Apr 14, 2015 7:33:00 GMT -5
Ah, now I get what yer sayin' there Tcaddis. You mean the greedy person that killed 11 woodcock or so trying to kill a banded one? Sad when the head of the enforcement arm of the agency is so greedy that his personal "goal" gets ahead of being a conservationist. I thought it was more like 16, but hey who is counting. I still don't think the resident population has recovered since that event. This was the story I was referring to earlier. The late Tom Gingher told a story about what happen with some of his cooperator info. The grouse biologist at the time was involved. I got bite this past fall telling someone where I was going. A "friend". I was slow to get to the spot, but early enough to see him and two other trucks coming to hunt the area. The saying Loose Lips Sinks Ship. Couldn't be any truer. |
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Post by Dutch on Apr 14, 2015 10:11:01 GMT -5
My brother, the smart one, whenever he's out hunting and someone asks him what he has seen, his general response is "nothing". He culd have had 50 deer run past him or flushed 20 grouse..... and he still saw "nothing".
Now, when he gets back to camp, he'll tell us, but no one else. Like you said, loose lips, sink ships.
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