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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 12:04:16 GMT -5
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Post by Dutch on Jan 20, 2014 13:30:22 GMT -5
I'll keep my thoughts to myself on the WPRA's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 14:23:07 GMT -5
I'll keep my thoughts to myself on the WPRA's. sure you will! lol
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Post by Dutch on Jan 20, 2014 15:09:37 GMT -5
I will. I promise.
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 21, 2014 12:46:04 GMT -5
Throwing $$$ down a black hole to satisfy a relatively small special interest group.
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Post by Roosterslammer on Jan 22, 2014 17:41:44 GMT -5
Throwing $$$ down a black hole to satisfy a relatively small special interest group. Tussey, you should follow Dutch's lead and refrain from comment when you have a lack of information.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 22, 2014 17:43:28 GMT -5
Now Lynn, ya went and dun did it.
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Post by Roosterslammer on Jan 22, 2014 17:52:26 GMT -5
Now Lynn, ya went and dun did it. You can count on me to correct those who have a lack of information and not one speck of time, money or effort in a program but feel comfortable criticizing it. It usually comes from hunters who don't hunt them and therefore don't want any money spent on something that doesn't benefit them. Try to look beyond the "me" factor.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2014 19:30:54 GMT -5
Only one thing to do. Go out and prove your critics wrong. If your wrong though man up and admit it.
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 22, 2014 19:45:58 GMT -5
I DO have money in it. Everybody who buys a hunting license does. I just read my new Game News today. $4,297,288.00 just on game farm operation. Crazy! That doesn't even include the WPRA's and related issues. The money should be spent better.
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Post by Roosterslammer on Jan 22, 2014 23:07:10 GMT -5
I DO have money in it. Everybody who buys a hunting license does. I just read my new Game News today. $4,297,288.00 just on game farm operation. Crazy! That doesn't even include the WPRA's and related issues. The money should be spent better. Gee, let me guess. Could it be grouse? Something you hunt and could benefit from? Since you brought up the game farm program expenses, which aren't related the wild pheasant plan, let's talk about the 90,000 hunters who hunt those pheasants. I guess they should just stay home because you don't hunt pheasants. The small group of people you refer is pretty large. The fact that you buy a hunting license certainly gives you the right to comment. Unfortunately, it doesn't require that it be an informed comment. If this wild pheasant plan doesn't make it, it won't be from our lack of effort. It certainly could be the cause of all those who set back and make negative comments about a program they did nothing to help but unfortunately will probably be the first in line to take advantage of. Check out the story about "The Little Red Hen." I didn't know it at the time but it must have been a hen pheasant
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Post by Dutch on Jan 23, 2014 6:08:54 GMT -5
Lynn, what are hen densities in the Montour WPRA? Latest data on the PGC site is from 2011.
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 23, 2014 8:33:09 GMT -5
Even if 90,000 hunters bought a hunting license JUST to hunt pheasants, that would generate $1.8 million. That would be a deficit of $2.5 million. We know 90,000 hunters don't buy a license just to hunt pheasants. I will say 10,000 do. That would be a deficit of $4.1 million. Even if it is somewhere in the middle, the $$$ number is outrageous! And no, I am not a grouse hunter. I may go once every couple years. And, if I was a grouse hunter, how dare I place a native bird above an exotic one? Like I said. Crazy!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 9:01:48 GMT -5
I know this is not going to be the popular viewpoint, but to quote a famous person, "What, at this point, does it matter?" At one time wild pheasants were the number one game species. Numero Uno! Primera! Today it would have to be deer. We lost a helluva lot when farming methods changed, thus ushering in the demise of natural reproduction pheasants. Until we get some sort of habitat for them to reproduce in, wild pheasants that reproduce naturally are a thing of the past. I don't blame the farmers for this. In order to keep the poor from revolting we have to keep them fed, so it is in the interest of government to keep food production high. To go back to the old ways is probably impossible.
On the other hand, let's consider a comparison to fishing. If we had to depend upon wild trout for our fishing pleasure if we want to fish for trout, we would be limited to a very few mountain streams that have native brook trout populations. If everyone fished for them and kept what they caught there would soon be no natives except in very remote places. I have no objection to trout stocking, even though several of the species stocked are not native to Pennsylvania. In a similar way, I have no objection to stocking pheasants. Without stocking pheasants we would have precious little small game for most of us to hunt. I would have no objection, not even a tiny one, to a pheasant stamp, the proceeds of which would be used to defray the cost of raising the birds. Go ahead and attack me if you wish, but preserving small game hunting in this state is worth every penny of the expense. Without it we drop into a situation where the only game species nearly all hunters are after is deer. Imagine the uproar if we don't provide a deer for everyone. Oh, sorry. I forgot about the deer wars. coffeespit
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Post by Dutch on Jan 23, 2014 9:45:26 GMT -5
George, when I first started hunting, in the early 70's, we had a number of BIG first days. First one was doves. We spent most of September hunting them. Don't know when I last saw a dove hunter around here. Used to be the good places were packed. Then archery deer came in and we went upstate for that, buck or doe, and if you killed one, you were done deer hunting for the year. Then we had the pheasant/turkey opener. The good farms were packed for the opening day, cars parked on both sides of the road and it rained shot pellets from hunters in adjoining fields. Then we had the deer season opener, no need to say more. Today, we are left with pretty much only a deer season opener and that is even according to many, becoming a hit or miss thing with hunters. I agree, and I didn't always, but the pheasant stocking continues to be popular, and may be part of the gateway to our youth. I also know the PGC is gaining economies of scale in production since going to 200,000+ birds. That said, the number of pheasant hunters has not increased since going to 200,000 birds, but it has also not dropped either. Wild pheasants on a large landscape are done, as you said. We MAY have a WPRA or 2 that will be successful, depending on what measure we call success. It depends on how many farms can be taken out of ag production and put into switchgrass, and thats it in a nutshell. The pheasants will depend on a USDA program, and how much switch can be put on the ground. I applaud Lynn's HUGE efforts, but, IMO, outside that Montour WPRA, we will never see large numbers of pheasants ever again.
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Post by bawanajim on Jan 23, 2014 10:13:32 GMT -5
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Post by dougell on Jan 23, 2014 10:37:04 GMT -5
Jim.your long winded posts of of late are tiring me out.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2014 10:41:57 GMT -5
The problem is that it requires a fairly large land area of good habitat to promote wild pheasant reproduction. We are getting a small amount near our Somerset County camp, primarily because there is a fair amount of marginal land that is either in game lands or is privatly owned and not in farm production due to its slope, the soil condition, or wetness too late in the year for planting. They raise a fair amount of corn there, but harvest it later than I have ever seen. Our pheasant hunting is better than most but still not what it used to be back in the day. While I would like to see wild pheasants recover, and have put my money where my mouth is, I hold out little hope so long as farming is done the way it is today. People can blame hawks, coyotes, foxes or whatever, but when a cornfield in January is as bare as a baby's behind and when there are no fencerows, it hainta gonna happen.
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Post by dougell on Jan 23, 2014 10:50:08 GMT -5
You're probably right but I see more and more farm land not being farmed and reverting back to forests.I hunted at my buddy's place a few years ago in Susquehanna county.tHERE'S STILL ACTIVE FARMS UP THERE BUT i COULDN'T BELIEVE THE AMOUNT OF FIELDS THAT WERE JUST OVERGROWN.
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Post by Roosterslammer on Jan 23, 2014 12:12:54 GMT -5
We never expected to be able to achieve a statewide return to a wild pheasant population. We believed and still believe that certain areas in the state could have a huntable wild pheasant population. In my mind, it all hinged on two things, wild pheasants and CREP. In the Central Susquehanna WPRA we had as much ground in CREP as we had during the soil bank days in the 60s. We know that wild pheasants in good habitat will survive. We have learned through this process what these birds require in PA in 2014 to grow in large numbers. Unfortunately the grass mixes used by NRCS were lacking in sufficient switchgrass to provide suitable winter cover on most of the CREP warm season grass acres. We have been working over the past 3 years to correct this problem but it takes time and switchgrass grows pretty slow requiring 3 years to reach good cover levels. It is a constant struggle with FSA in trying to fix this problem but we are steadily gaining ground. We are to the point now where we can tell a landowner what they need to do to have a huntable population of birds on their farm. If they have the needed FSA requirements, they can be paid to plant soil and wildlife conservation cover. We still have CREP available and over 150,000 acres on the ground. This is a doable plan if everybody gets on the same page. We think that will happen as we go forward. If it fails, the downside is we planted a lot of good wildlife cover.
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Post by bawanajim on Jan 23, 2014 14:18:29 GMT -5
This program is some what like the elk, they cost hunters a bundle of money for a very long time, and through that time hunters so no return on that investment, net today it looked at as a great success story.
Good Habitat and the people that own it are more important today than ever in our sport, why this is overlooked is a mystery to me. We have hunters whom with every breath speak of how much need we have to increase hunter numbers and get youth involved yet berate those whom do as being self serving and or wasteful.
We are at a critical time and place in PA today, with ever shrinking hunter numbers and questionable leadership direction, we are fortunate at this time to have the financial ability to bank roll this start up program that if it takes root, could be a game changer for so many of todays young hunters that don't have much of a starting point when it comes to targets of their quest. With this grass land will also come rabbits, a bonus and at no added cost.
How many times have I heard it works in blah blahblah why can't it work here? If you have never been to a state with tens of thousands of wild birds you owe it to yourself to see them,and where they live before you are so critical of this program.
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Post by Roosterslammer on Jan 23, 2014 15:21:42 GMT -5
Lynn, what are hen densities in the Montour WPRA? Latest data on the PGC site is from 2011. We have route densities and random point densities. Route densities average between 104 and 3. What this tells you is that the birds are currently confined to areas of maximum habitat. If one of the routes goes by an area of maximum habitat, it increases the route rating. My crowing count route had birds at each stop last year. The day I had 143 birds on my crowing count route, the high density area I have on my route had 24 birds. The birds are concentrated during winter cover periods but spread out more for nesting. The WPRA is 100,000 acres so just using a hens per square mile figure doesn't give you near the information you need to make a decision on management. Some areas have high density but more do not. We know why and we are working to correct it. All of the high density areas right now are private areas and would have limited hunting opportunities. Most of our work lately has been in areas where hunters can get access. When these areas increase in density, we will look to an open season of limited time and bag limits.
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 24, 2014 8:20:10 GMT -5
the PFBC is in dire straits. I'm glad it was brought up because it strengthens my argument. A state-run put and take program does not work in the long run. The labor is too expensive and there is no profit incentive driving management. I have said before, if there was a pheasant stamp, you would not see me on the internet discussing this. Whlie the stamp would not recover all of the high costs, it would do enough to lessen the burden on the PGC. The hunter recruitment at all costs needs looked at. Even if you pick up 5,000 hunters a year directly from pheasants, that is $860 per hunter. Some recruited will drop out and some recruited previously will be retained. Still, we are in a very high $$$ range. If the program was ended, license sales would not drop by 90,000. There is no way anybody but a state agency with a desperate focus on hunter recruitment, and special interest groups can support a program with such horrible economics and minuscule real and non-tangible benefits. I would like to see how much it costs a private grower to raise 200,000 pheasants. $4.3 million? I wonder lol. Buy them from a private grower if need be. Put the $$$ saved into habitat. Edit: According to the PF site, it costs $3-$15 to raise one. A wide range, yes. It cost the PGC around $21.00 per bird. That is double what PF claims it is.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 24, 2014 10:39:04 GMT -5
The $21.00 figure includes the cost of distribution as well. Getting them from the pheasant farms and into the field.
I can buy pheasants for about $12 per bird from a farmer, but I have to pick them up and distribute them myself.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 12:08:30 GMT -5
Isn't the PGC making money off of the gas revenue? If so I don't think they are hurting for money.
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