Post by melody on Jul 18, 2013 13:39:16 GMT -5
House Judiciary Committee
7/17/13, 10:30 a.m. Room 140 Main Capitol
By Alizah Thornton, PLS Intern
The committee held a public hearing on Pennsylvania’s procedure for firearm background checks.
Chairman Ron Marsico (R-Dauphin) stated the purpose of the hearing and noted the committee is not holding the hearing to discuss any particular bills.
Scott Snyder, Deputy Commissioner of Staff, testified along with Scott Price, Director of Operational Records Division, Pennsylvania State Police on the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS). Snyder remarked on the overall operation of PICS and the steps the system takes regarding background checks for individuals who wish to make gun purchases. He commented on the services PICS provides and the initiatives taken to ensure customer service. Snyder stated the importance of investigating individuals with potential illegal firearm purchases and other crimes.
Chairman Marsico asked how many states a background check system. Snyder replied 12 or 13 states. Price explained that when someone goes into a firearm dealer in Pennsylvania to purchase a firearm, federal and state forms have to be filled out, depending on the type of firearms. The dealer enters the individual’s driver’s license number into the system to begin the background check. Chairman Marsico asked what happens to an individual without a driver’s license. Price stated demographic data can be collected and used. The person may be denied if there is insufficient data or other information concerning the individual that is false, Price explained. Chairman Marsico questioned what happens to an individual with a record. Price replied action is taken depending on what the record says. The police are notified if the individual has a warrant, he stated.
Rep. Matthew Bradford (D-Montgomery) asked what the current laws are in Pennsylvania regarding which weapons are subject to background check. Snyder replied handgun, rifle, and long-gun purchases are subject, except private long-gun transfers. Long-guns not purchased from a federal licensed center are an exception, Snyder said.
Rep. Bradford questioned if it is feasible to conduct the additional background checks if the exemptions are added. Snyder said it would be difficult to answer because he does not know how many guns would need to be registered. Rep. Bradford stated he is concerned that Snyder does not know because there are an unknown number of guns that were transferred to individuals without background checks.
Rep. Bradford asked if closing the loophole would be beneficial, Snyder replied it could be considered beneficial.
Rep. Mark Keller (R-Perry) asked why a background check is needed to purchase a gun if an individual already obtains a permit to carry. Snyder stated the law requires the check for the purchase and transfer of the gun. Price explained if a person has a permit and license to carry but is arrested for something that may take away the right to carry a gun there may be a time discrepancy to notify the proper authority that the individual is not allowed to carry the gun anymore.
Rep. Tim Krieger (R-Washington) asked how the State Police uses the data in record of sale. Snyder said the data is used to help with criminal investigations. Price commented on an example of a homicide investigation. He stated the ballistics determined the weapon used, and the record of database was used to help identify a suspect who was initially cleared in the investigation. Price also stated the record of database can also be used to help individuals find lost or stolen guns. Rep. Krieger asked how long the query of the database is kept. Price did not have that information.
Rep. Madeline Dean (D-Montgomery) commented on the long-gun exception to background checks for private transfers and asked what other eligible long-guns can transfer without a background check. Price explained the barrel length of the long-gun on rifle can determine if it can be transferred. He stated this transfer can be initiated through a private exchange and not in a gun show.
Rep. Dean asked how handguns go through background checks at a gun show. Price stated the regulations in Pennsylvania at a gun show are the same as anywhere else and added a PICS check must be conducted. He explained if two citizens meet at the show and exchange guns or one purchases a gun from the other, the individuals are not subject to undergo a background check. Rep. Dean commented that because of the gap in the law individuals can still transfer illegal guns.
Rep. Bryan Cutler (R-Lancaster) asked if internet sales of guns are included in the law for background checks. Snyder replied an internet purchase of a firearm must be transferred to a firearms dealer. Rep. Cutler asked if data is collected on internal costs for background checks and if the fees by the patrons cover the charges. Snyder stated $5.9 million goes to support the firearms division a year and the fees cover approximately 50 percent of the charges.
Rep. Todd Stephens (R-Montgomery) questioned how often the data is occurring. Snyder said the organization receives 3,200 in voluntary commitments per month. Rep. Stephens asked if Snyder can ensure the reports will continue to occur on a regular basis and Snyder stated they will try.
Rep. Stephens asked what type of data can be obtained through PICS that cannot be obtained through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Snyder stated the data in PICS hits on many different databases and some data PICS collects does not coincide with data NICS provides, and vice versa. Snyder explained there is a threshold for fingerprints through the FBI and thus they are not always sufficient enough to read. He stated about 400 to 500 individuals a month are rejected because of the misread. Rep. Stephens asked if there is a system to track the agencies that provided inadequate fingerprints and if anyone follows up with the agencies. Snyder stated it is possible to have a tracking system, but the organization does not have the resources to do so. Rep. Stephens asked if there is a list of agencies that are not following up. Snyder stated the group has been working with another organization to help try to solve the problem.
Chairman Marsico asked if PICS has any problems or delays with obtaining information with NICS. Snyder replied the group has a good relationship with NICS. He stated for the most part they provide the information needed. Price explained NICS is down sometimes and they recognize that.
Joe Keffer, President, Pennsylvania Association of Firearms Retailers, testified on the increased business of firearm purchases and that increase has caused delays through PICS. Keffer said that in other states it appeared that NICS was more equipped to handle the increased volume. “From our perspective, it seems that the duplication effort, expense, and manpower does not translate into the most efficient method of accomplishing the task that we all strongly support that being keeping prohibited individuals from obtaining firearms,” Keffer stated.
Chairman Marsico commented he has talked with other retailers and they have stated the opposite of Keffer’s testimony: the retailers have more problems with NICS than PICS.
Keffer said the organization meets with the State Police on a regular basis to discuss issues of importance. Keffer stated the State Police has not told the organization NICS is a part of the delay. He stated he spoke with dealers who expressed this concern.
Rep. Krieger asked how many retailers are members of the organization, to which Keffer replied about 400. Rep. Krieger asked Keffer about a PICS survey which indicated 96 percent of dealers/retailers were satisfied with PICS. Keffer stated he is not familiar with the survey so he cannot speak on it. Rep. Krieger asked if the findings seem accurate. Keffer stated he does not think so based on his conversation with his dealers.
Rep. Bradford asked if legislation to close the loophole of the private transfer of long-guns would affect the retailers business. Keffer replied no.
Rep. Cutler questioned if internet sales happen frequently and about records to that end. Keffer stated internet sales are not something the retailers encourage. He stated there may be few that he knows about.
Rep. Dean asked if Keller’s members are losing customers as a result of increased wait times through PICS. Keffer stated some retailers said they have. He explained sometimes individuals who want to buy a gun leave, but he could not specifically tie the reason why the customer left to wait times. Rep. Dean commented on Rep. Bradford’s remark on legislation to close the loopholes for long-guns. Keffer reiterated the legislation would not affect his business. Rep. Dean asked if the other services PICS offers are beneficial. Keffer explained he is unaware of the differences in services between PICS and NICS.
Shira Goodman, Executive Director, CeaseFirePA, urged “the expansion of the background check system to cover long-gun sales in the same manner as handgun sales, and we urge the maintenance of PICS.” She said CeaseFirePA supports House Bill 1010, which would eliminate the exemption of long-gun sales from background checks. She contended PICS is a system that works for its intended purposes, and the background check system for Pennsylvania should be made stronger.
Rep. Keller asked if the organization is in favor of background checks on all firearms. Goodman stated the organization is in favor of expanding the background check system, but it also supports the same framework for being able to transfer long-gun in private purchases.
Rep. Dean questioned if Goodman believes Pennsylvania has a good background check system. Goodman replied the organization does believe the system is good and CeaseFirePA would oppose any movement to weaken or dismantle the system.
Francine Lobis Wheeler, mother of a Sandy Hook shooting victim, testified on the events which led to the death of her son in the Sandy Hook shooting. She remarked background checks will not eliminate crime although the checks help to prevent felons and mentally ill people from obtaining firearms. She also added there are responsible gun owners and there are individuals who should not be allowed to own a gun. “Background checks and other gun laws shouldn’t be the beginning and end of our conversation about how to prevent gun crime. We need to do more to ensure that people with mental health problems get the help they need. We need tighter communities and stronger families. We ought to figure out if there are ways to make our schools safer. But, we should also make sure that we’re taking common sense steps to keep guns out of the hands of those who would harm our families,” Wheeler stated.
Chairman Marsico, Rep. Regan, Rep. Dean, and Rep. Stephens commented on Goodman’s testimony and stated their sympathy to Wheeler for the loss of her son.
Jake McGuigan, Director of Government Relations/State Affairs, National Shooting Sports Foundation, testified on behalf of his organization’s “strong support to transfer background checks for firearm purchases from PICS to NICS.” McGuigan contended dealers and retailers face accounting and administrative costs from collecting fees and performing the background checks PICS conducts. He stated retailers have concerns about PICS service issues which disrupt their business. “We strongly urge the committee to give serious consideration to having the Federal Bureau of Investigation-NICS conduct the federally mandated background check before a firearm can be sold,” McGuigan stated.
Rep. Stephens asked how California faced an increased liability for the sale of private gun purchases. McGuigan said many retailers have non-tactical violations that are causing problems. Rep. Stephens asked how the state is supposed to enforce the laws. McGuigan stated the retailers are supposed to hand out a form to the individual who fills out all of the necessary information. He stated in retailers are supposed to perform background checks either through PICS or NICS. Rep. Stephens asked how to get around the problems because the PICS and NICS systems are not identical. McGuigan replied the records from PICS should also appear in the NICS system so an individual cannot go to another state to purchase a firearm if he is prohibited from purchasing in Pennsylvania.
Rep. Bradford asked if McGuigan does not want to see private transactions have a background check or if he does not want the private transactions to have to go to a firearms retailer for background checks. McGuigan said the organization has a concern with the potential impact on the retailers. He stated the group does not want to get involved in private party transactions, but the group wants to make sure all of the correct information needed for background checks is in the appropriate system. He stated retailers are concerned with losing their license from performing background checks on private party transfers if the parties do not provide the retailer with accurate information.
Rep. John Sabatina (D-Philadelphia) asked if the potential of increased business through foot-traffic offsets the potential liability from the retailers. McGuigan commented a survey was conducted with Oregon retailers about how they perceive a mandate would affect their business, which found 80 percent of the retailers opposed the idea.
Rep. Dean reiterated PICS is not completely duplicative of NICS. McGuigan remarked the process of obtaining a firearm is “not a simple process by any means” and invited the members of the committee to come into one of his retailer’s shops to see the actual process.
David Scholnick, Pennsylvania Director, Mayors Against Illegal Guns; J. Richard Gray, Mayor of Lancaster and Pennsylvania Chairman, Mayors Against Illegal Guns; and Geoff Henry, Mayor of Oxford, testified together. Gray contended the current background system is effective and should remain in place with the exception of closing the loophole that exempts the private transfer of long-gun purchases from background checks. Gary opined “background checks do stop criminals from getting guns, background checks do reduce crime and save lives, and background checks do not interfere with the rights of lawful gun owners.” Henry testified on the on usage of long-guns in murders. “We cannot continue to exempt certain guns based on barrel length. Felons, domestic abusers, and people with severe mental illnesses are prohibited from having both handguns and long-guns no matter who they get the gun from. It is time that we start enforcing the law on all gun sales, licensed and private, regardless of the type of gun,” he stated.
Rep. Dean stated her support for mayors who have to deal with gun violence in their communities.
John Hohenwarter, National Rifle Association (NRA) of America, stated the NRA opposes the expansion of background checks to include private transfers. Hohenwarter said NICS can perform the same background checks as PICS. If PICS provides NICS with the necessary data and the State Police do not continue to conduct background checks, Hohenwarter stated, Pennsylvania could save $6 million each year and use the money to hire additional police officers. “Proposals to expand Pennsylvania’s current background check system to include all firearm transfers are misguided and ineffective policy because criminals do no acquire firearms through legal means,” Hohenwarter stated.
Chairman Marsico commented on the law that says it is illegal to conduct a private transfer or purchase of a handgun without obtaining a PICS background check conducted by a proper retailer. Hohenwarter added is it also illegal to sell a long-gun firearm to a person who is prohibited from doing so.
Rep. Stephens asked if he is familiar with the issue of two percent of fingerprint cards being rejected because of inadequate printing. Hohenwarter was not familiar with the data. He noted some states may not have submitted mental health records to national databases like NICS. Rep. Stephens reiterated he is concerned with gaps in the system, and he said he thinks the differences in the information collected by PICS and NICS needs to be addressed.
Rep. Bradford asked if the NRA supports a background check on assault weapons and the private transfer of those weapons without requiring a background check. Hohenwarter said no, adding that the organization supports the current law in Pennsylvania. Rep. Bradford asked why checks are not okay for private transfers of long-guns if they are okay for handguns. Hohenwarter replied it is due to the difference in how often long-guns are used in crimes as opposed to handguns. He opined universal background checks will not be effective in reducing crime. Rep. Bradford asked if he is correct that Hohenwarter’s position on not requiring background checks for long-guns is based on his statement long-gun account for four percent of crime and Hohenwarter said yes. He opined there should be a conversation about the prevention of crime. Hohenwarter commented California did not attribute a reduction in crime because of the state’s universal background check but because of the state’s initiatives to help prevent crime by helping individuals most susceptible to do crime.
Rep. Krieger remarked on Hohenwarter’s comments in his testimony regarding how a universal background check creates de facto-registration. Hohenwarter said he believes the universal background check will create that. He stated many retailers are required to keep the record of sell for gun purchases.
Rep. Steven Santarsiero (D-Bucks) asked if the NRA supports the current system for prohibiting the private sale of handguns. Hohenwarter did not have the authority to answer on behalf of NRA on that specific issue, but noted the NRA does support the private legal sale of long-guns because those guns are not the most commonly used in crimes.
Hohenwarter questioned why the focus is on long-guns that are used in less than four percent of murders in Pennsylvania, and not other weapons that contribute to more, such as knives. Rep. Santarsiero said he is trying to understand the NRA’s position. Rep. Santarsiero asked if $10 is a nominal fee for background checks. Hohenwarter said he doesn’t know the answer to that question.
Rep. Dean said she is confused by part of the NRA’s testimony because she said the testimony says the NRA supports the current law. Hohenwarter stated he does not recall saying in his testimony that the NRA supports the current law as it regards universal background checks for handguns. Rep. Dean asked if the background check laws increase efficacy. Hohenwarter disagreed, remarking that it is debatable on the effectiveness of background checks.
Rep. Dean asked at what level it is necessary to decide regarding long-gun background checks because the rate of crime by those guns is at four percent. Hohenwarter stated he thinks it is the role of the legislative body to decide the most appropriate use of funds.
Kim Stolfer, Chairman, Firearms Owners Against Crime, testified on the flaws of the PICS system. He cited examples where rightful gun owners were listed as prohibited from buying a gun through the PICS system. Stolfer opined if the PICS system is expanded to include all firearms then the second amendment and the right to bear arms is gone. Stolfer recounted a number of instances where PICS has failed.
David Green, Director, Firearms Owners Against Crime, PAC, described the complete the process of selling a firearm including the steps taken in order to conduct a background check. Green stated as the point of sale contact and firearm retailer he has a legal and moral obligation to engage a potential customer with questions regarding the reasons behind the purchase of the firearm. Green stated the record of sale form needs to be addressed because individuals are denied firearm purchasing rights if they fills out the form incorrectly. He stated due to the nature of the form, denials happen often because individuals who fill out the form may not be sure of the question and fill in the answer wrong. Green contended the current system has a number of flaws and those flaws should be addressed and fixed. He pointed out the flaws will become greater if the system is expanded.
Chairman Marsico thanked Stolfer and Green for their testimony.
Written Testimony was submitted by Joseph Bielevicz, Member, Pittsburgh Bureau of Police15
7/17/13, 10:30 a.m. Room 140 Main Capitol
By Alizah Thornton, PLS Intern
The committee held a public hearing on Pennsylvania’s procedure for firearm background checks.
Chairman Ron Marsico (R-Dauphin) stated the purpose of the hearing and noted the committee is not holding the hearing to discuss any particular bills.
Scott Snyder, Deputy Commissioner of Staff, testified along with Scott Price, Director of Operational Records Division, Pennsylvania State Police on the Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS). Snyder remarked on the overall operation of PICS and the steps the system takes regarding background checks for individuals who wish to make gun purchases. He commented on the services PICS provides and the initiatives taken to ensure customer service. Snyder stated the importance of investigating individuals with potential illegal firearm purchases and other crimes.
Chairman Marsico asked how many states a background check system. Snyder replied 12 or 13 states. Price explained that when someone goes into a firearm dealer in Pennsylvania to purchase a firearm, federal and state forms have to be filled out, depending on the type of firearms. The dealer enters the individual’s driver’s license number into the system to begin the background check. Chairman Marsico asked what happens to an individual without a driver’s license. Price stated demographic data can be collected and used. The person may be denied if there is insufficient data or other information concerning the individual that is false, Price explained. Chairman Marsico questioned what happens to an individual with a record. Price replied action is taken depending on what the record says. The police are notified if the individual has a warrant, he stated.
Rep. Matthew Bradford (D-Montgomery) asked what the current laws are in Pennsylvania regarding which weapons are subject to background check. Snyder replied handgun, rifle, and long-gun purchases are subject, except private long-gun transfers. Long-guns not purchased from a federal licensed center are an exception, Snyder said.
Rep. Bradford questioned if it is feasible to conduct the additional background checks if the exemptions are added. Snyder said it would be difficult to answer because he does not know how many guns would need to be registered. Rep. Bradford stated he is concerned that Snyder does not know because there are an unknown number of guns that were transferred to individuals without background checks.
Rep. Bradford asked if closing the loophole would be beneficial, Snyder replied it could be considered beneficial.
Rep. Mark Keller (R-Perry) asked why a background check is needed to purchase a gun if an individual already obtains a permit to carry. Snyder stated the law requires the check for the purchase and transfer of the gun. Price explained if a person has a permit and license to carry but is arrested for something that may take away the right to carry a gun there may be a time discrepancy to notify the proper authority that the individual is not allowed to carry the gun anymore.
Rep. Tim Krieger (R-Washington) asked how the State Police uses the data in record of sale. Snyder said the data is used to help with criminal investigations. Price commented on an example of a homicide investigation. He stated the ballistics determined the weapon used, and the record of database was used to help identify a suspect who was initially cleared in the investigation. Price also stated the record of database can also be used to help individuals find lost or stolen guns. Rep. Krieger asked how long the query of the database is kept. Price did not have that information.
Rep. Madeline Dean (D-Montgomery) commented on the long-gun exception to background checks for private transfers and asked what other eligible long-guns can transfer without a background check. Price explained the barrel length of the long-gun on rifle can determine if it can be transferred. He stated this transfer can be initiated through a private exchange and not in a gun show.
Rep. Dean asked how handguns go through background checks at a gun show. Price stated the regulations in Pennsylvania at a gun show are the same as anywhere else and added a PICS check must be conducted. He explained if two citizens meet at the show and exchange guns or one purchases a gun from the other, the individuals are not subject to undergo a background check. Rep. Dean commented that because of the gap in the law individuals can still transfer illegal guns.
Rep. Bryan Cutler (R-Lancaster) asked if internet sales of guns are included in the law for background checks. Snyder replied an internet purchase of a firearm must be transferred to a firearms dealer. Rep. Cutler asked if data is collected on internal costs for background checks and if the fees by the patrons cover the charges. Snyder stated $5.9 million goes to support the firearms division a year and the fees cover approximately 50 percent of the charges.
Rep. Todd Stephens (R-Montgomery) questioned how often the data is occurring. Snyder said the organization receives 3,200 in voluntary commitments per month. Rep. Stephens asked if Snyder can ensure the reports will continue to occur on a regular basis and Snyder stated they will try.
Rep. Stephens asked what type of data can be obtained through PICS that cannot be obtained through the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). Snyder stated the data in PICS hits on many different databases and some data PICS collects does not coincide with data NICS provides, and vice versa. Snyder explained there is a threshold for fingerprints through the FBI and thus they are not always sufficient enough to read. He stated about 400 to 500 individuals a month are rejected because of the misread. Rep. Stephens asked if there is a system to track the agencies that provided inadequate fingerprints and if anyone follows up with the agencies. Snyder stated it is possible to have a tracking system, but the organization does not have the resources to do so. Rep. Stephens asked if there is a list of agencies that are not following up. Snyder stated the group has been working with another organization to help try to solve the problem.
Chairman Marsico asked if PICS has any problems or delays with obtaining information with NICS. Snyder replied the group has a good relationship with NICS. He stated for the most part they provide the information needed. Price explained NICS is down sometimes and they recognize that.
Joe Keffer, President, Pennsylvania Association of Firearms Retailers, testified on the increased business of firearm purchases and that increase has caused delays through PICS. Keffer said that in other states it appeared that NICS was more equipped to handle the increased volume. “From our perspective, it seems that the duplication effort, expense, and manpower does not translate into the most efficient method of accomplishing the task that we all strongly support that being keeping prohibited individuals from obtaining firearms,” Keffer stated.
Chairman Marsico commented he has talked with other retailers and they have stated the opposite of Keffer’s testimony: the retailers have more problems with NICS than PICS.
Keffer said the organization meets with the State Police on a regular basis to discuss issues of importance. Keffer stated the State Police has not told the organization NICS is a part of the delay. He stated he spoke with dealers who expressed this concern.
Rep. Krieger asked how many retailers are members of the organization, to which Keffer replied about 400. Rep. Krieger asked Keffer about a PICS survey which indicated 96 percent of dealers/retailers were satisfied with PICS. Keffer stated he is not familiar with the survey so he cannot speak on it. Rep. Krieger asked if the findings seem accurate. Keffer stated he does not think so based on his conversation with his dealers.
Rep. Bradford asked if legislation to close the loophole of the private transfer of long-guns would affect the retailers business. Keffer replied no.
Rep. Cutler questioned if internet sales happen frequently and about records to that end. Keffer stated internet sales are not something the retailers encourage. He stated there may be few that he knows about.
Rep. Dean asked if Keller’s members are losing customers as a result of increased wait times through PICS. Keffer stated some retailers said they have. He explained sometimes individuals who want to buy a gun leave, but he could not specifically tie the reason why the customer left to wait times. Rep. Dean commented on Rep. Bradford’s remark on legislation to close the loopholes for long-guns. Keffer reiterated the legislation would not affect his business. Rep. Dean asked if the other services PICS offers are beneficial. Keffer explained he is unaware of the differences in services between PICS and NICS.
Shira Goodman, Executive Director, CeaseFirePA, urged “the expansion of the background check system to cover long-gun sales in the same manner as handgun sales, and we urge the maintenance of PICS.” She said CeaseFirePA supports House Bill 1010, which would eliminate the exemption of long-gun sales from background checks. She contended PICS is a system that works for its intended purposes, and the background check system for Pennsylvania should be made stronger.
Rep. Keller asked if the organization is in favor of background checks on all firearms. Goodman stated the organization is in favor of expanding the background check system, but it also supports the same framework for being able to transfer long-gun in private purchases.
Rep. Dean questioned if Goodman believes Pennsylvania has a good background check system. Goodman replied the organization does believe the system is good and CeaseFirePA would oppose any movement to weaken or dismantle the system.
Francine Lobis Wheeler, mother of a Sandy Hook shooting victim, testified on the events which led to the death of her son in the Sandy Hook shooting. She remarked background checks will not eliminate crime although the checks help to prevent felons and mentally ill people from obtaining firearms. She also added there are responsible gun owners and there are individuals who should not be allowed to own a gun. “Background checks and other gun laws shouldn’t be the beginning and end of our conversation about how to prevent gun crime. We need to do more to ensure that people with mental health problems get the help they need. We need tighter communities and stronger families. We ought to figure out if there are ways to make our schools safer. But, we should also make sure that we’re taking common sense steps to keep guns out of the hands of those who would harm our families,” Wheeler stated.
Chairman Marsico, Rep. Regan, Rep. Dean, and Rep. Stephens commented on Goodman’s testimony and stated their sympathy to Wheeler for the loss of her son.
Jake McGuigan, Director of Government Relations/State Affairs, National Shooting Sports Foundation, testified on behalf of his organization’s “strong support to transfer background checks for firearm purchases from PICS to NICS.” McGuigan contended dealers and retailers face accounting and administrative costs from collecting fees and performing the background checks PICS conducts. He stated retailers have concerns about PICS service issues which disrupt their business. “We strongly urge the committee to give serious consideration to having the Federal Bureau of Investigation-NICS conduct the federally mandated background check before a firearm can be sold,” McGuigan stated.
Rep. Stephens asked how California faced an increased liability for the sale of private gun purchases. McGuigan said many retailers have non-tactical violations that are causing problems. Rep. Stephens asked how the state is supposed to enforce the laws. McGuigan stated the retailers are supposed to hand out a form to the individual who fills out all of the necessary information. He stated in retailers are supposed to perform background checks either through PICS or NICS. Rep. Stephens asked how to get around the problems because the PICS and NICS systems are not identical. McGuigan replied the records from PICS should also appear in the NICS system so an individual cannot go to another state to purchase a firearm if he is prohibited from purchasing in Pennsylvania.
Rep. Bradford asked if McGuigan does not want to see private transactions have a background check or if he does not want the private transactions to have to go to a firearms retailer for background checks. McGuigan said the organization has a concern with the potential impact on the retailers. He stated the group does not want to get involved in private party transactions, but the group wants to make sure all of the correct information needed for background checks is in the appropriate system. He stated retailers are concerned with losing their license from performing background checks on private party transfers if the parties do not provide the retailer with accurate information.
Rep. John Sabatina (D-Philadelphia) asked if the potential of increased business through foot-traffic offsets the potential liability from the retailers. McGuigan commented a survey was conducted with Oregon retailers about how they perceive a mandate would affect their business, which found 80 percent of the retailers opposed the idea.
Rep. Dean reiterated PICS is not completely duplicative of NICS. McGuigan remarked the process of obtaining a firearm is “not a simple process by any means” and invited the members of the committee to come into one of his retailer’s shops to see the actual process.
David Scholnick, Pennsylvania Director, Mayors Against Illegal Guns; J. Richard Gray, Mayor of Lancaster and Pennsylvania Chairman, Mayors Against Illegal Guns; and Geoff Henry, Mayor of Oxford, testified together. Gray contended the current background system is effective and should remain in place with the exception of closing the loophole that exempts the private transfer of long-gun purchases from background checks. Gary opined “background checks do stop criminals from getting guns, background checks do reduce crime and save lives, and background checks do not interfere with the rights of lawful gun owners.” Henry testified on the on usage of long-guns in murders. “We cannot continue to exempt certain guns based on barrel length. Felons, domestic abusers, and people with severe mental illnesses are prohibited from having both handguns and long-guns no matter who they get the gun from. It is time that we start enforcing the law on all gun sales, licensed and private, regardless of the type of gun,” he stated.
Rep. Dean stated her support for mayors who have to deal with gun violence in their communities.
John Hohenwarter, National Rifle Association (NRA) of America, stated the NRA opposes the expansion of background checks to include private transfers. Hohenwarter said NICS can perform the same background checks as PICS. If PICS provides NICS with the necessary data and the State Police do not continue to conduct background checks, Hohenwarter stated, Pennsylvania could save $6 million each year and use the money to hire additional police officers. “Proposals to expand Pennsylvania’s current background check system to include all firearm transfers are misguided and ineffective policy because criminals do no acquire firearms through legal means,” Hohenwarter stated.
Chairman Marsico commented on the law that says it is illegal to conduct a private transfer or purchase of a handgun without obtaining a PICS background check conducted by a proper retailer. Hohenwarter added is it also illegal to sell a long-gun firearm to a person who is prohibited from doing so.
Rep. Stephens asked if he is familiar with the issue of two percent of fingerprint cards being rejected because of inadequate printing. Hohenwarter was not familiar with the data. He noted some states may not have submitted mental health records to national databases like NICS. Rep. Stephens reiterated he is concerned with gaps in the system, and he said he thinks the differences in the information collected by PICS and NICS needs to be addressed.
Rep. Bradford asked if the NRA supports a background check on assault weapons and the private transfer of those weapons without requiring a background check. Hohenwarter said no, adding that the organization supports the current law in Pennsylvania. Rep. Bradford asked why checks are not okay for private transfers of long-guns if they are okay for handguns. Hohenwarter replied it is due to the difference in how often long-guns are used in crimes as opposed to handguns. He opined universal background checks will not be effective in reducing crime. Rep. Bradford asked if he is correct that Hohenwarter’s position on not requiring background checks for long-guns is based on his statement long-gun account for four percent of crime and Hohenwarter said yes. He opined there should be a conversation about the prevention of crime. Hohenwarter commented California did not attribute a reduction in crime because of the state’s universal background check but because of the state’s initiatives to help prevent crime by helping individuals most susceptible to do crime.
Rep. Krieger remarked on Hohenwarter’s comments in his testimony regarding how a universal background check creates de facto-registration. Hohenwarter said he believes the universal background check will create that. He stated many retailers are required to keep the record of sell for gun purchases.
Rep. Steven Santarsiero (D-Bucks) asked if the NRA supports the current system for prohibiting the private sale of handguns. Hohenwarter did not have the authority to answer on behalf of NRA on that specific issue, but noted the NRA does support the private legal sale of long-guns because those guns are not the most commonly used in crimes.
Hohenwarter questioned why the focus is on long-guns that are used in less than four percent of murders in Pennsylvania, and not other weapons that contribute to more, such as knives. Rep. Santarsiero said he is trying to understand the NRA’s position. Rep. Santarsiero asked if $10 is a nominal fee for background checks. Hohenwarter said he doesn’t know the answer to that question.
Rep. Dean said she is confused by part of the NRA’s testimony because she said the testimony says the NRA supports the current law. Hohenwarter stated he does not recall saying in his testimony that the NRA supports the current law as it regards universal background checks for handguns. Rep. Dean asked if the background check laws increase efficacy. Hohenwarter disagreed, remarking that it is debatable on the effectiveness of background checks.
Rep. Dean asked at what level it is necessary to decide regarding long-gun background checks because the rate of crime by those guns is at four percent. Hohenwarter stated he thinks it is the role of the legislative body to decide the most appropriate use of funds.
Kim Stolfer, Chairman, Firearms Owners Against Crime, testified on the flaws of the PICS system. He cited examples where rightful gun owners were listed as prohibited from buying a gun through the PICS system. Stolfer opined if the PICS system is expanded to include all firearms then the second amendment and the right to bear arms is gone. Stolfer recounted a number of instances where PICS has failed.
David Green, Director, Firearms Owners Against Crime, PAC, described the complete the process of selling a firearm including the steps taken in order to conduct a background check. Green stated as the point of sale contact and firearm retailer he has a legal and moral obligation to engage a potential customer with questions regarding the reasons behind the purchase of the firearm. Green stated the record of sale form needs to be addressed because individuals are denied firearm purchasing rights if they fills out the form incorrectly. He stated due to the nature of the form, denials happen often because individuals who fill out the form may not be sure of the question and fill in the answer wrong. Green contended the current system has a number of flaws and those flaws should be addressed and fixed. He pointed out the flaws will become greater if the system is expanded.
Chairman Marsico thanked Stolfer and Green for their testimony.
Written Testimony was submitted by Joseph Bielevicz, Member, Pittsburgh Bureau of Police15