Gary Alt new podcast

[moosemike]

calloftheoutdoorspgc.com/podcast/episode-32-pennsylvania-deer-hunting-past-and-present-with-dr-gary-alt/?fbclid=IwAR3Spa_rdCMzLoST9A-KoTkIx90QHjuZ0Jr7AV-XtewmUG_hyGECot3PcOY

I found it interesting

[Dutch]

I just listened to my 6th Gary Alt seminar.....

[35whelan]

I always liked Gary Alt...

[davet]

I just remember when the poor man was looked at with such evil that he had to leave the state. Turned out he was right all along.....just his time frame was off.

Were it not for Alt the fine rack bucks we are not taking would have never occurred. That little spike that sat down 15 yards from me on the 1st day would have been hanging from a meat pole were it not for A\R.

[35whelan]

Best thing that ever happened to the Pa. deer herd were antler restrictions... Worst thing to happen to the bear population was Gary Alt getting booted... I wonder if he would have had these long seasons for bear which is starting to reflect on the amt. of bears harvested...Some might say we have a high bear harvest every year... Yeh they keep adding days to the season...

[ridgecommander]

I just wish Gary was up front about what herd reduction would do and not try to sell herd reduction with antler restrictions. When he said expect more and bigger bucks as the deer program rolled out, many people actually expected it. Both cannot occur during herd reduction. The average size of the bucks can get larger but you are not going to have more bucks when you are reducing the deer herd. Many hunters seemed to be shocked that deer numbers dropped so much and they were not bucks behind every tree and became increasingly frustrated. He caught a lot of wrath and suffered the consequences as did the PGC.

The situation is different today than it was the first five years of AR/HR of course.

[dougl]

I look at hunting today compared to 1980 when I started to hunt.I saw exactly one buck in 1980 and I was lucky to shoot the 4" spike because my doe tag application was rejected.Both my son and I hunted less this year than any year I can remember.I didn't take a single day off to hunt this year and he only had the 1st monday off.So just hunting saturdays we've killed 6 doe and two bucks.The buck he shot was about 16" and would have been the talk of the town in 1980.He killed that deer the first day of archery season and had to pass 7 or 8 bucks since then,again many of which would have been mounted in those days.I killed an 8 point just shy of 20" and have passed multiple other bucks since then.I had to pass on 4 bucks on the first day of rifle,three of which were nice enough to mount back in those days.We've been seeing bucks in rifle season and that was unusual back in 1980 because 90% of the available bucks were dead by 9:00am.This has been the norm for the past 10 years and actually our slowest year in terms of dead deer just because we aren't hunting as much.So without a doubt I see more and bigger bucks today on average than I did in 1980.It's not even close.It's not just AR that impacted it.It's a combination of that,much less pressure and there's more food for the deer that are there.Other than not having the choice to hunt on sunday,I can't imagine why people complain about the hunting in this state.

[muttleysback]

I hope we never go back to the way things were in the 1980s with respect to deer management. Antler restrictions have been a godsend. Herd reduction was very necessary.
I agree with Doug on the fact that I am seeing more and bigger bucks than I did at any time prior to 2000. All but one of my best bucks ever taken has been after that year.
Oh, and yes, I am seeing fewer deer than I did back then, but I no longer see herds of 25 deer that are all does, and the does that we do kill are bigger and in better condition.

[moosemike]

What I found really interesting from the podcast is that none of them, including Alt, wanted antler restrictions. They entertained Earn-A-Buck but found out it doesn't work. They also entertained closing buck season. Once they exhausted every other option they came back to AR's and decided it was the only good option

[muttleysback]

IMO, it ended up being a great choice.

[dougl]

I think it was a good choice but the timing was also good.Hunter number started to drop and I believe that lack of pressure is a bigger factor than AR.AR did change the mindset of many hunters however.The issue today is trying to keep doe numbers in check with lack of pressure,especially in the big woods.

[dougl]

I had to take my dog to the vet last thursday.He's an older guy who hunts hard and farms.He was bitching up a storm about everything PGC.Between him and his brother,they have two very big farms locked up and he claims there's no big bucks anymore because of high grading.I just stood there and listened.A buddy of mine hunts property on the the side of the vet's brother's place and claims there's multiple huge bucks in there.Everything is just a matter of one's own perspective.

My son and I spent most of this year split between two very easily accessed DMAP areas that are about a mile or two apart.The one spot has about 1500 acres and I know of at least 7 absolute slammers killed this year.It's a tough place to hunt because the deer just have every advantage but guys were killing them.I saw a 9 point that a guy killed on the first day that was easily pushing 140".On monday my son killed a doe and right after he shot,a guy killed a stud of an 8 point not far behind him.I was stuck at home with a flat tire so my son ran home to pick me up.We went back to help the guy drag it out.I'm telling you it was also pushing 140" and that's no easy feat for an 8 point.It's never been better.

[davet]

The biggest "fear", "danger", call it what you want....to Pennsylvania deer and elk is CWD. Other states have proven that the only way to slow the progress is to essentially cut the heard sizes.

Pa hunters rejected that option based upon "unknown pie in the sky" fears. You know...insurance companies payments to reduce heard. Other unfounded fears and conspiracy theories as well.

If biologist don't get a handle on the CWD, I fear the future of Pa whitetail hunting is in danger of significant drops in participation.

[ridgecommander]

Dec 6, 2022 9:48:23 GMT -5 dougl said:

So without a doubt I see more and bigger bucks today on average than I did in 1980.It's not even close..

As I said, the landscape is different today than it was the first few years of HR/AR. Back then, after a few years of HR, it was mathematically impossible to see what Alt promised the masses.

Kip Adams explains it well how the buck population is a factor of the doe population. If you reduce the doe population, the buck population has to decrease as well.
deerassociation.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/#:~:text=Two%20goals%20of%20QDM%20are,structures%20for%20bucks%20and%20does.

With herd reduction there cannot be more and bigger bucks. If the deer population is the same today as back then we will roughly have the same number of bucks but they will be bigger. If we have more deer, more bucks and bigger. Less deer, less bucks and bigger.

[dougl]

I would say we had more "bigger" bucks soon after AR was implemented but nor more bucks.It is a different landscape today with less hunters and I'm speculating here but willing to bet that they knew what was trending.

I have a hard time with anyone(including myself) judging the number of deer out there based on what they see or more importantly,don't see.Deer are much better at avoiding us than we are at finding them.In any event,based on my 40+ years hunting in Pa,these are the best times and they get better every year.

CWD IS HEAR TO STAY,AT LEAST FOR NOW.

[ridgecommander]

Dec 6, 2022 12:29:16 GMT -5 dougl said:

.In any event,based on my 40+ years hunting in Pa,these are the best times and they get better every year.

I would agree. Generally speaking, the deer hunting in this state is the best its been in my lifetime.

[rs]

Good Podcast, thanks for posting the link moose.

I would be willing to bet Gary Alt said, “more bigger bucks” and some hunters heard, “more bucks than there are now and they will all have bigger racks”, and maybe I am wrong on that, it has been so long ago. I will add that two back to back hard winters around 2004-2005 produced a sizeable winter kill in 2G, which was erroneously attributed to what some thought were too many antlerless/DMAP tags being issued.

[fleroo]

I had to take my dog to the vet last thursday.He's an older guy who hunts hard and farms

Everything gets old I reckon. But how the hell did you teach the dog to hunt hard and farm ?