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Post by westfieldjoe on Oct 11, 2017 9:28:58 GMT -5
Archery season should run from Sept 1st to Jan 31st. Muzzleloaders can hunt rifle season. And leave flintlock season alone. JMHO They only remove about 1% of the total deer harvested. I can't understand why they get so much attention. It obviously cant be the total harvest! It can only be along the lines of people concerned over they might kill someone's deer. Other than that I can't figure it.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 11, 2017 11:02:06 GMT -5
You said you agree that bowhunters have been catered to too much(that's what you said) when you seem proud to be one of the major movers and shakers that fought for much of the catering you agree is too much. Actually, what I said twice was that I would like to see other groups get opportunity if additional opportunity becomes available. If archery hunters receive more opportunity before others, that then reaches being catered too, IMO. I supported the previous opportunities and do not believe they were unfair. I know you are trying real hard to make your point but it continues to fall flat. Again.........
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Post by redarrow on Oct 11, 2017 16:06:18 GMT -5
So you got what you wanted, screw everybody else. You feel you played hero for those who wouldn't archery hunt under the rules that archers had been hunting under for decades. I think hunting over bait needs another champion. And don't forget the Air bow/gun. I'm sure you haven't put away your cape yet.
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Post by davet on Oct 11, 2017 17:03:47 GMT -5
So you got what you wanted, screw everybody else. You feel you played hero for those who wouldn't archery hunt under the rules that archers had been hunting under for decades. I think hunting over bait needs another champion. And don't forget the Air bow/gun. I'm sure you haven't put away your cape yet. Man....you guys need to quit this whizzing contest. Why don't you agree that you disagree? Over whatever "point" your trying to make. I don't read your post anymore....I scan 'em and it's always the same BLA BLA BLA......Give it up already.
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Post by bushmaster on Oct 11, 2017 17:39:26 GMT -5
I'm in agreement with Gene. Red has a chip on his shoulder over this crossbow inclusion. He needs to get over it. Davet you are correct, it's like a broken record!
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Post by redarrow on Oct 11, 2017 19:03:41 GMT -5
I don't care that they are now legal. But much of what is said abut why they are now allowed and why full inclusion was needed is total BS. It is also clear that some are blind to the fact that some seasons were created to add a more challenging aspect to hunting-most flintlock hunters seem to be above that. There is also the "everybody should get to play and be given a trophy" direction to the whole inclusion thing. I guess it's the liberal mindset that now goes almost unnoticed, every by professed super conservatives.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 12, 2017 6:57:25 GMT -5
So you got what you wanted, screw everybody else. You feel you played hero for those who wouldn't archery hunt under the rules that archers had been hunting under for decades. Actually, not only did I get what I wanted, others also got what they wanted. And for the record, many that archery hunted under the old rules also supported crossbow inclusion. The majority of those that switched from vertical bows to crossbows were already archery hunting. Of course, I know those facts don't fit your narrative, yet again..... One of these days you are gonna come up with a point that actually has some steam behind it. Maybe..... As far as "screw everyone else". You or no one else has been "screwed". You can hunt as you always had during the same season you always had. The positive that has happened is that archery hunters numbers are back to where they used to be. With archery the focus of the antis, there is strength in numbers. That is a very good thing! My cape is hanging in the closet. With the passage of the air rifle and semi auto bill, it hasn't seen much action lately. I am still working to see semiauto rifles legalized for all game, though. As far as baiting in Pennsylvania, I currently support it in the SRAs only. As far as the air bow, I do not support their inclusion in any archery season since they propel arrows by means other than energy stored in drawn limbs.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 12, 2017 6:59:23 GMT -5
So you got what you wanted, screw everybody else. You feel you played hero for those who wouldn't archery hunt under the rules that archers had been hunting under for decades. I think hunting over bait needs another champion. And don't forget the Air bow/gun. I'm sure you haven't put away your cape yet. Man....you guys need to quit this whizzing contest. Why don't you agree that you disagree? Over whatever "point" your trying to make. I don't read your post anymore....I scan 'em and it's always the same BLA BLA BLA......Give it up already. Then don't read. When fellow hunters are attacked with slights, stereotypes, and innuendo, I will always defend them. Whether I know them or not. Doesn't matter to me what the issue is, either. We need more hunters to stand up against the venom from within that looks to divide us. Only then will we be stronger against the attacks against our sport from the antis.
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Post by fleroo on Oct 12, 2017 11:44:51 GMT -5
Of course, I'm cool with having a dedicated late season for Flinter and, ahem..... archery. BUT, I doubt the resource (read that as Buck) would be harmed, if Flinters were given a few days, hell a week, in a warmer season (somewhere in archery) to harvest a Buck. There's already 698,345 arrows and bolts being let loose in that season, and apparently not harming the resource (read that as Buck). I highly doubt a few round balls cutting the air, mostly in an errant fashion, will be much of an impact ?
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Post by Dutch on Oct 12, 2017 15:21:05 GMT -5
I deleted three posts.
Get the idea guys?
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 12, 2017 15:38:39 GMT -5
BUT, I doubt the resource (read that as Buck) would be harmed, if Flinters were given a few days, hell a week, in a warmer season (somewhere in archery) to harvest a Buck. There's already 698,345 arrows and bolts being let loose in that season, and apparently not harming the resource (read that as Buck). I highly doubt a few round balls cutting the air, mostly in an errant fashion, will be much of an impact ? I have long supported muzzleloader folks getting some more attention. Especially when it comes to antlered deer.
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Post by dougell on Oct 13, 2017 8:27:26 GMT -5
I think crossbows have changed "archery" but I don't believe they hurt the resource.I took my son to a proficiency test this past summer and he was the only one there with a compound in the short time we were there.I took my son to Jim's sports center last week to get him new wrestling shoes.While there,I found a leftover Hoyt carbon spyder I couldn't walk away from because of the price.They sell both compounds and crossbows so I asked the tech how sales were.He said they were about 50/50 between bows and crossbows.I imagine that ratio would be highly skewed towards crossbows at the bigger box stores.I'm willing bet that at least 70-75% of the bowhunters I knew are now shooting crossbows.Participation at 3d shoots is way,way down and I attribute that largely to crossbow inclusion.It doesn't change what I can do or the way I hunt so I really don't care.
As far as flintlocks go,I really don't care what they do with that either.The older I get and the older my son gets,the more I don't care what anyone,including the PGC does.I strictly focus on what we can do and try hard to ignore what we can't.There are plenty of advancements in technology that I personally don't care for and won't use but it's up to each individual to decide what's most important to them.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 13, 2017 10:28:38 GMT -5
Last I saw stats in states where inclusion has existed for some time, about 60% use crossbows and 40% vertical bows, on average.
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Post by westfieldjoe on Oct 13, 2017 11:33:35 GMT -5
Last I saw stats in states where inclusion has existed for some time, about 60% use crossbows and 40% vertical bows, on average. 2014 survey had 37% using a crossbow. 49% vertical. 13% used both crossbow and vertical.
"Did you start or return to archery because you could use a crossbow?" 27% said yes. So in the 2013 season there was 27% more archery hunters due to crossbow inclusion.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 13, 2017 14:08:10 GMT -5
Last I saw stats in states where inclusion has existed for some time, about 60% use crossbows and 40% vertical bows, on average. 2014 survey had 37% using a crossbow. 49% vertical. 13% used both crossbow and vertical.
"Did you start or return to archery because you could use a crossbow?" 27% said yes. So in the 2013 season there was 27% more archery hunters due to crossbow inclusion.
Yep. My point was that the numbers eventually level off after so many years of inclusion to around 60% of archery hunters using crossbows.
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Post by Dutch on Oct 13, 2017 16:22:24 GMT -5
And after the compounds were legalized, how many used recurves??
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Post by bushmaster on Oct 13, 2017 16:48:19 GMT -5
And after the compounds were legalized, how many used recurves?? Recurves are for sissy pants archers Dutch! Longbows my man! Lol
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Post by buzz on Oct 13, 2017 18:11:59 GMT -5
And after the compounds were legalized, how many used recurves?? People as a rule take advantage of better weapons with extended range of kill in bow season. When one looks at the range of a recurve, as opposed to todays cross bow with "proclaimed range of 100yards"..........and the fact that archery season has been extended through the rut...............it is quite obvious how far that season has evolved, while other seasons remain , for the most part, stagnate. I have zero issue with bow hunting, but it is also very obvious which group gets catered to on a continued basis. They obviously have good representation in front of the PgC board.
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Post by Dutch on Oct 13, 2017 18:27:39 GMT -5
My grandfather started hunting deer with a shotgun, back in the early 20's. They then went to rifles, the rifles with scopes.
Made them far more effective than shotguns with slugs.
But, the "improvements" stopped right there.
Honestly, like Ridge, I have long supported some expanded opportunity for groups OTHER than bowhunters.
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Post by cspot on Oct 13, 2017 20:32:14 GMT -5
My grandfather started hunting deer with a shotgun, back in the early 20's. They then went to rifles, the rifles with scopes. Made them far more effective than shotguns with slugs. But, the "improvements" stopped right there. Honestly, like Ridge, I have long supported some expanded opportunity for groups OTHER than bowhunters. Actually I disagree. Ammunition is made to tighter tolerances these days and so are weapons. The technology has improved in making these weapons. Now you have scopes that you can dial the range in and shoot on the money. No more Kentucky windage. They have slug guns now that are shooting 150 to 200 yards. Heck in-line muzzleloaders are shooting out that far. Rangefinders even with rifle allow for alot more accurate shooting. Was archery hunting the other night in a spot that was very close to an old gun stand that I hunted as a kid. We used to do alot of shooting across the valley out of that stand. At that time we had no rangefinder, so it was just a guess. We always guessed that it was about 200 yards over across. When I was sitting there the other night, I ranged over to where we typically shot and it was 300 yards. No wonder we didn't kill many deer over there as we were shooting underneath them.
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Post by westfieldjoe on Oct 14, 2017 5:27:40 GMT -5
Of course, I'm cool with having a dedicated late season for Flinter and, ahem..... archery. BUT, I doubt the resource (read that as Buck) would be harmed, if Flinters were given a few days, hell a week, in a warmer season (somewhere in archery) to harvest a Buck. There's already 698,345 arrows and bolts being let loose in that season, and apparently not harming the resource (read that as Buck). I highly doubt a few round balls cutting the air, mostly in an errant fashion, will be much of an impact ? The only criteria the PGC uses to determine if the resource is being harmed is the date that 90% of the adult doe are bred. Buck can be safely removed if enough doe are also removed. The 2014 survey; "How many antlerless deer harvested during archery?" 81% said zero. Nada. So what happens if the early season is eliminated? Would the average breeding date be affected enough to raise a concern? I don't know. It places spin on why that season remains.
What I do suspect would happen if buck were added to the early season, some of the archery harvest would transfer. As archery hunters would make a different weapon choice. Would the average breeding date be affected? Who knows. But I never thought the resource could absorb the number of buck being removed by archery today. I cant see why it cant absorb a few removed by a ML if enough doe are removed also by both weapon choices.
The old balance has been thrown off from when archery was lower impact. ML has clearly remained low which it should never be more than low impact. It doesn't seem right that archery gets all the early buck while ML gets doe to help archery take more buck. LOL. I wish the PGC would set the knobs to zero and re-bore sight.
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Post by davet on Oct 14, 2017 7:14:30 GMT -5
Bullets......the evolution of throwing rocks.
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Post by Dutch on Oct 14, 2017 7:20:54 GMT -5
My grandfather started hunting deer with a shotgun, back in the early 20's. They then went to rifles, the rifles with scopes. Made them far more effective than shotguns with slugs. But, the "improvements" stopped right there. Honestly, like Ridge, I have long supported some expanded opportunity for groups OTHER than bowhunters. Actually I disagree. Ammunition is made to tighter tolerances these days and so are weapons. The technology has improved in making these weapons. Now you have scopes that you can dial the range in and shoot on the money. No more Kentucky windage. They have slug guns now that are shooting 150 to 200 yards. Heck in-line muzzleloaders are shooting out that far. Rangefinders even with rifle allow for alot more accurate shooting. Was archery hunting the other night in a spot that was very close to an old gun stand that I hunted as a kid. We used to do alot of shooting across the valley out of that stand. At that time we had no rangefinder, so it was just a guess. We always guessed that it was about 200 yards over across. When I was sitting there the other night, I ranged over to where we typically shot and it was 300 yards. No wonder we didn't kill many deer over there as we were shooting underneath them. My extended family has been long range hunting since the late 30's, 500-700 yds, with good success. Guys who took it seriously, with good scopes, like Unertls, with elevation and windage clicks, were killing deer at long distances, way back in the 60's. But, you are right, the new guns, like the Ruger Precision Rifle, and decent ammo have made it far easier to kill.
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Post by redarrow on Oct 14, 2017 8:40:48 GMT -5
Honestly, like Ridge, I have long supported some expanded opportunity for groups OTHER than bowhunters. Now that, right there, is absolutely hilarious. How many times has he proudly pointed out that he was one of the squeakiest wheels in the push for full inclusion. .....In fact, from reading his posts on the matter, I assumed that the reason he used one was likely because he brook his arm while patting himself on the back when he got his wish!
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Post by cspot on Oct 14, 2017 8:57:16 GMT -5
Honestly, like Ridge, I have long supported some expanded opportunity for groups OTHER than bowhunters. Now that, right there, is absolutely hilarious. How many times has he proudly pointed out that he was one of the squeakiest wheels in the push for full inclusion. .....In fact, from reading his posts on the matter, I assumed that the reason he used one was likely because he brook his arm while patting himself on the back when he got his wish! . You do realize that right now is the prime time of hunting seasons. You can hunt a variety of game. Perhaps you should let go of your anger and go hunt.
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