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Post by Dutch on Dec 10, 2012 20:37:38 GMT -5
I find that hard to believe.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2012 22:53:04 GMT -5
Deer numbers are down my crew hunts very hard and it went from seeing 20 a day to seeing 10 a season some guys only see 2 or 3 it's hard to keep guys motivated and wanting to go and these are guys who used to be diehard's now they have been beaten down I wish there was a better solution.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 7:38:15 GMT -5
Perhaps, looking back on it, I saw more deer this year than in past seasons because I hunted all six days of the first week of rifle season. The past three years I was done the first day or got a buck during archery season, so I did not put as much time in on stand as I did this year. The past three years were spent being the dog and driving patches of laurel for the other guys, and I usually don't see the deer I push out. I did see enough this year to keep me interested. On only one day did I not sight a deer, that being Wednesday. My grandson saw over 20 deer in the two days he hunted with us, Friday and Saturday of the first week of rifle season. Keep in mind that we hunt state game lands #111 in Somerset County, and that we saw hardly any hunters during the entire week, so deer movement was not from them being pushed.
I do understand that some hunt in areas where there are many more hunters and far fewer deer. It would be impossible to manage the herd so that it was perfectly evenly distributed over the entire state, and that would not be desirable anyway. Some areas can support more deer and some less. Our area has recovered substantially, and there is a very healthy understory present in nearly all of the forest. I would estimate that our herd is approximately 20 per square mile, but within those square miles they are not evenly distributed. There are days when it is difficult to find deer and days when you wonder why it was so difficult on those other days.
It is very simple to tell folks who hunt a particular area and are not seeing deer to find another area, and for sure, that will work. The problem is that those folks, like Muab Dib, have many years invested in the area in which their cabin is located and have memories that they feel they can't leave behind. Another problem is that for some, travel to areas of the state in which there are higher populations of deer is out of the question for one reason or another. Not everyone has the entire season off like I do, and not everyone can afford to travel to an area where they have no place to stay and put in a few days of hunting.
Still another problem is that our definition of "hunting hard" has changed. I remember when I started hunting that meant we got a gang together and drove deer all day long. Today it means I sit on a treestand from dawn to dark, or still hunt when the spirit moves me to do so. It is next to impossible to get a gang of twenty or so guys together who like to hoof it all day.
This season was the best we have had at camp Rip-N-Tear. Two of the guys took nice bucks during archery season, and of course the high point was my getting the bear during bear archery season. I did not get a buck this year, and had only one chance at one I thought was good enough to take a shot at during archery season, plus one that was not good enough during rifle season. The game cameras show that a bunch of nice ones and some young ones have survived the year so far, so maybe in flintlock season a dumb one will make a fatal mistake for me? It still will be hard to top how great this year was, especially with grandson Seth being in camp toward the end of the week and seeing a bunch of deer. This old grey beard isn't quitting just yet.
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Post by ridgecommander on Dec 11, 2012 7:50:19 GMT -5
Rich, I believe predation does effect the herd. The PGC has spent years over protecting the bears in 2G. Couple that with an increase in yotes and you have the makings of an ecosystem in sync with itself, almost. The ultimate plan of the antis. Game populations controlled naturally as they were when the settlers arrived. In some areas of this state, we are probably there.
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Post by Muab Dib on Dec 11, 2012 8:04:24 GMT -5
" It is very simple to tell folks who hunt a particular area and are not seeing deer to find another area, and for sure, that will work. The problem is that those folks, like Muab Dib, have many years invested in the area in which their cabin is located and have memories that they feel they can't leave behind." You hit the nail square on the head Muttley. If I truly just wanted to kill a deer I'd knock on doors down here in the flatlands and hunt farm fields and wood lots. Those mountains though are in my soul. Like you said, too many memories, too much tradition, too beautiful to simply leave behind. I realize it doesn't make sense to some folk, but to me and the boys we just gotta hunt those mountains for deer. We know the trails, the pinch points, the bedding areas, the escape routes, and the thrill of working hard for a Michaux deer. Every one is earned...they're special, and while they're still there, something's very different now and we're not sure what to make of it. A lot of the younger kids are done with it now. Just four of us still make the effort. And while we feel it's worth it and still enjoyable as well as a privilege to be able to hunt those S. Mountain deer; to be honest with you it's now beginning to be a bit discouraging. As I said before, we'll regroup and see if we can be more effective, but man this season was a tough one to swallow. Muab
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 8:47:51 GMT -5
I am truly fortunate for my situation and, in that realization, I also am very aware of the tough situation of many camp owners. My place started out as my camp more than 30 years ago. There were years of near despair over the lack of deer. Actually it was a "surplus" of hunters rather than too few deer. Over time, some neighboring kids grew up and moved away, areas were logged, I bough more land adjacent to my first settlement and the deer numbers very quickly rebounded to become "too" many.
Public land is a whole different ball game and I sympathize with those tied to a particular, worn out, area. Conditions are likely to remain much the same in coming years though. Here, if EHD or some other malady reduced the herd to un-huntable levels, I would drive to SF Land and hunt my old area --- as you described Muabdib --- I still know those trails and hidey holes.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 9:09:36 GMT -5
I'm also concerned Gene but I really don't have a lot of sympathy for those not seeing deer.Hunting is what you put into it.I had several area that were once good and now are basically worthless.Some area where good because there was early successional habitat that turned into pole timber and the carrying capacity crashed as a result.Some got leased and posted.Some just started getting hammered by groups of guys that drive the same areas over and over again starting the first day of bear season.They don't clean the deer out but they send them underground.All that gives me reason to have multiple back-up areas.All of these other areas are anywhere from 2 minutes to less than an hour away.Some years they pan out and some years they don't.It's all a matter of available food sources that change constantly. You say guys get stuck in a rut and don't have back up plans and you say you get out of it what you put into it. Well I said I never hunted harder in rifle season than this year. I also hunted Loyalsock SF, SGL 211, SGL 156, SGL 145, and SGL 80. So tell me what I'm doing wrong since you seem to know?
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 9:32:44 GMT -5
It is very simple to tell folks who hunt a particular area and are not seeing deer to find another area, and for sure, that will work. The problem is that those folks, like Muab Dib, have many years invested in the area in which their cabin is located and have memories that they feel they can't leave behind. Another problem is that for some, travel to areas of the state in which there are higher populations of deer is out of the question for one reason or another. Not everyone has the entire season off like I do, and not everyone can afford to travel to an area where they have no place to stay and put in a few days of hunting. Read more: www.pfsc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=whitetail&action=display&thread=713&page=1#ixzz2EkloYOnSMutt,I moved to this part of the state in 1991 and built a home and a business,largely due to the outdoor opportunities.I think it's safe to say that I have way more invested in my home and my business than the average camp owner.When I moved here,deer were running around like rats.In order to kill one,all you had to do was find a spot and sit to wait them out.Usually it didn't take long.I used to travel rt 322,not far from where I believe Rich's camo is.It was nothing to see 120 along side the road on my way home from work.The habitat took an absilute and utter beating from all those deer.Today we have far less deer than in 1991 and I've excepted it as the way it has to be.It still isn't poor hunting however.There's less deer,less hunter moving them and they don't have to be on their feet looking for food because there's more of it.Food sources do change throughout the season and you have to have a basic understanding of where they should be at different times.A good spot in early october won't necessarily be any good in late December.Few people seem to understand that because they hunt the same spots year after year.I've killed 12 deer in 2G during the last two seasons.Only a couple were killed in the exact same spot.I can take anyone to places where you can sit all day and be lucky to see a deer.You'd swear there weren't any.We can do a couple quick drives and you'd be amazed at what comes out.The deer are there.The hunting is much more difficult until you understand what deer need.
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Post by dennyf on Dec 11, 2012 9:32:46 GMT -5
While I know we have far fewer deer now where I've hunted for over 50 years, than we had by the late 90s, there are still lots of deer in those areas. Even if those who live and hunt there claim there aren't any around now.
Why do I know there are still lots of deer around? Because I can find them out feeding in early spring, throughout the summer and in the fall. IF one goes where their food sources are at various times of the seasons, one can find them. They are not invisible, nor can they fly.
Basing opinions only on what one sees during deer seasons, ignores the realities of actual deer populations in many cases.
In "my" area there are several sanctuary type bits of habitat that tend to collect deer after the merest bits of hunting pressure. One of these areas (thick pine plantation) is directly across the hollow from my camp (roughly 400 to 600 yards distant) and most of the locals know that's where deer will be concentrated after the first day or two of rifle season.
The owner will not allow anyone else on that property to hunt, but some will sneak the lower edge of it at some point during a season. Two years ago a neighbor and one other person did that on the last Saturday and two groups of deer came out; One group across the neighbor's hayfield and the other across a pasture. One group of a dozen deer, one of about 6 or 8.
No doubt in my mind if enough guys punched-out that entire patch of pines, twice that many deer would've come out? There are several such "sanctuary" areas within a half mile of my cabin, many of them pines planted in the 60s, like the ones across from my place.
Areas that many claim hold few deer, probably hold far more than most would ever imagine, but no proof will be offered if those areas are never properly pushed.
Bottom line, not every part of the state has "enough" deer, but many areas have more deer than most think, based primarily on their brief experiences there once per year.
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 9:41:17 GMT -5
I'm also concerned Gene but I really don't have a lot of sympathy for those not seeing deer.Hunting is what you put into it.I had several area that were once good and now are basically worthless.Some area where good because there was early successional habitat that turned into pole timber and the carrying capacity crashed as a result.Some got leased and posted.Some just started getting hammered by groups of guys that drive the same areas over and over again starting the first day of bear season.They don't clean the deer out but they send them underground.All that gives me reason to have multiple back-up areas.All of these other areas are anywhere from 2 minutes to less than an hour away.Some years they pan out and some years they don't.It's all a matter of available food sources that change constantly. You say guys get stuck in a rut and don't have back up plans and you say you get out of it what you put into it. Well I said I never hunted harder in rifle season than this year. I also hunted Loyalsock SF, SGL 211, SGL 156, SGL 145, and SGL 80. So tell me what I'm doing wrong since you seem to know? I never hunted with you so I have no idea what you're doing wrong.But it sounds like you're hunting areas with no sign.If there is sign,you're giving up too fast if you hunted that many areas.I will say that just running around and trying new spots haphazardly won't be enough.What made you hunt any of these areas.Did you find recent sign before hand?How was the mast crops?Are they cleaned up in those areas?Any recent logging acvtivity?If so,What's actually growing? I did very little preseason scouting this year.However,I did enough to know there wasn't much of any type of mast crop.I knew the deer would be near areas that had prefered browse and also in thick ravines near corn.I hit those areas and found deer.There was no one moving them so I had to get on my feet and find them.I hunted the first saturday until 1:30 without seeing a deer or another hunter.The sign was there so I stuck it out and my son and I each killed deer that afternoon.I think we only saw four all day.That's a pizz poor day by many hunter's stardards but it's a day the two of us will always remember as a great day.It's all a matter of perspective and one's attitude.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 10:11:11 GMT -5
I did indeed scout those areas preseason and found the sign and the mast. Especially in SGL's 211 and 145. The mast crop was low this year but it was decent in places. I don't think I gave up too quickly anywhere. it's a two week season and I didn't happen to have anything else going on for those two weeks so I hunted every day morning and evening. I was thoroughly impressed with the hunter pressure all season long but the guys I talked to were seeing the same things I was-not much.
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Post by archeryman32 on Dec 11, 2012 11:00:38 GMT -5
I too had the worst season of my entire life this. I hunt my butt off here in Southern Potter, especially in archery. This was the first year since I was 13 years old that I didn't tag a buck.
With that said, I'm not concerned. Things just didn't line up. You can scout until you are blue in the face, be in the right area, etc, but you still need the deer to cooperate. They just didn't with me.
Also, in my rifle travels, I scouted hard while I hunted. Found some incredible areas and saw herds of 10-12 does in two different areas. They get pressured, they get holed up. Heck I found a rubline/scrapeline in a real remote area where I could have actually put my treestand in the trees the buck was rubbing.
Just the sign I found and seeing that many deer in these new spots gave me hope for next year. Also, I knew I was due for a bad season at some point. Rather get it out of the way now and hunt that monster that was tearing up trees big as my waste this coming season!
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Post by dennyf on Dec 11, 2012 11:19:48 GMT -5
Found about the "usual" number of 3" to 6" trees rubbed this year, several scrapes and also viewed my cousin's son's trail cam pics of multiple nice bucks in that area, going back to September. Same result this year: Didn't come across any of the culprits while hunting those areas. But others did. Cousin's kid thumped a heavy-racked 18" eight point up in there in archery season and some other very nice bucks were taken in the general area in rifle season this year. Keeps my interest up knowing there are now such critters around the areas I hunt.
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 11:26:34 GMT -5
Denny,my house is surround by 1200 acres of land open to anyone and several game farm coops.Every morning I drop my daughter off at the bus stop at 6:45am.I do a big loop to finish my coffee before turning the horses out.On an average morning,I'll see between 30-44 deer out in the fields in early sept.Once bear season rolls around,I'll be lucky to see a handful.By the end of Dec,the fields will be loaded again as long as there's not alot of snow cover.It happens every year.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 13:17:00 GMT -5
I did indeed scout those areas preseason and found the sign and the mast. Especially in SGL's 211 and 145. The mast crop was low this year but it was decent in places. I don't think I gave up too quickly anywhere. it's a two week season and I didn't happen to have anything else going on for those two weeks so I hunted every day morning and evening. I was thoroughly impressed with the hunter pressure all season long but the guys I talked to were seeing the same things I was-not much. Just an observation. Things change during the fall from September to December. An area that held deer in September might not be such a great area in rifle deer season. Food is the key. We find this to be true for bear and it is also true for deer. Using bears as an example, if you find an area with loads of white oak acorns in Somerset County you will find bears, but if your white oaks did not bear much in the way of acorns they will not be there. Before the acorns drop the bears concentrate on other foods, so hunting the white oak areas when the bears are concentrating on cornfields would not be productive. Find out what the deer are eating and when they are eating it and you will find deer. We had corn and soybean fields within a mile of our camp. The farmer harvested them in early October this year and patterns changed a few weeks after that. They kept hitting the fields, but later in the evening and even after dark then. Another factor is pressure. There is virtually no pressure during August and September. When the archery hunters take to the woods in October the deer adapt to that change. The third week of October we start banging away at them with inlines and they also adapt to that. When the rut kicks in and the bucks start into the walking phase, whole new patterns of movement arise. I am lucky in that I can spend time at the cabin every month of the year, so I am starting to learn the patterns of movement.
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 14:58:42 GMT -5
I agree.The only good sign worth hunting is fresh sign.Conditions change rapidly throughout the fall.I personally very rarely rely on mast except early in the archery season.Acorns are usually cleaned up by the end of archery season unless there's a huge mast crop.If there's still acorns left by the time rifle season rolls around,I'll check out some areas on higher ridgtops that are choked with laurel and have an oak overstory.The deer will hole up in that laurel because they don't have to leave to find food.The acorns are droppoing right on their heads.Without acorns,these areas are usually a waste of time.I primarily hunt near recently timbered areas and I pay attention to what's growing and how the deer are impacting it.If there's a lot of browse pressure,the deer will be there as long as there's cover.If there;s nothing but beech and birch growing,I won't hunt there because there won't be many deer.That alone eliminates huge areas that I won't waste my time in.
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Post by dennyf on Dec 11, 2012 15:06:06 GMT -5
George, you and Doug mentioned many of the things I see each year up where I hunt and I seldom spend more than 50 or 60 days per year there.
Deer hardly ever travel the same areas during archery seasons in October, that they tend to frequent by rifle season, for example. Different things going on with them, as noted, depending on the time of year: Food sources, rut, weather, presense of humans, etc.
I too have a "loop" that I travel frequently observing deer, while at camp. It's about a five to seven mile route that I've been using for over 35 years. Both to observe deer feeding at dusk all year long and spotlighting in late November.
This year I could see as many as 80 deer on one trip around, or as few as a dozen, in an area that's roughly two square miles.
Spotlighting on the Sat. and Sun. immediately before the rifle season this year, produced less than 30 deer seen each night.
Same areas I'd commonly see twice that many back around Labor Day weekend and in mid October, at dusk. As a comparison, not unusual to see over 120 deer per night while spotlighting, back in the late 90s.
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Post by richg on Dec 11, 2012 16:39:06 GMT -5
Very good discussion and civil advice from everybody here.I'm enjoying reading posts on those frustrated,some happy,and others understanding to those with concern. I say thanks to yinz.It aint that way other places on the net. ;D
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Post by richg on Dec 11, 2012 16:47:23 GMT -5
Having said that me personally though deer sightenings were very low I know a buck or two was out there in my travels,I saw the sign.At this point I'm getting used to seeing few if any deer.And I do like hunting the NC mountains.I've always enjoyed an area that has almost all the critters Pa has to offer from bear to elk.And the remote places are neat to be in.My concern lies with my grandson.I can only hope he'll love it and be able to handle those many days without seeing deer.I taught my sons on days without deer sightings pay attention to other things like the habitat and other critters you see.Heck I get a kick out of watching a red headed wood pecker and wondering what he uses for headaches. ;D Doug,my camp is closer to clearfield about 7 miles from rockton.I haven't hunted there for quite awhile because the woods looks like a park.
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Post by Dutch on Dec 11, 2012 16:53:07 GMT -5
Very good discussion and civil advice from everybody here.I'm enjoying reading posts on those frustrated,some happy,and others understanding to those with concern. I say thanks to yinz.It aint that way other places on the net. ;D GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 17:05:23 GMT -5
Very good discussion and civil advice from everybody here.I'm enjoying reading posts on those frustrated,some happy,and others understanding to those with concern. I say thanks to yinz.It aint that way other places on the net. ;D GROUP HUG!!!!!!!!! ;D You just settle down there partner!
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 17:30:45 GMT -5
I ain't huggin Rich unless he shaves his legs first.
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Post by dougell on Dec 11, 2012 18:00:39 GMT -5
Having said that me personally though deer sightenings were very low I know a buck or two was out there in my travels,I saw the sign.At this point I'm getting used to seeing few if any deer.And I do like hunting the NC mountains.I've always enjoyed an area that has almost all the critters Pa has to offer from bear to elk.And the remote places are neat to be in.My concern lies with my grandson.I can only hope he'll love it and be able to handle those many days without seeing deer.I taught my sons on days without deer sightings pay attention to other things like the habitat and other critters you see.Heck I get a kick out of watching a red headed wood pecker and wondering what he uses for headaches. Doug,my camp is closer to clearfield about 7 miles from rockton.I haven't hunted there for quite awhile because the woods looks like a park. Read more: www.pfsc.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=whitetail&thread=713&page=2#ixzz2EmkLkc36Rich,I put very little stock in actual deer sighting during rifle season.There's just way too many variables that impact sightings on a given day in any particular area.I've hunted areas and never saw a friggin deer all day just to go in a few days later with a couple buddies and see them all over the place when we'd drive them out.I live up here and spend a fair amount of time driving around with work.I saw deer all over the place this year so I know they're out there.I had a good year killing them this year but it was one of the slowest years I ever had for actual sightings.The most I saw in one day was nine.I've learned alot over the past 10 years but one thing is for sure,the days of plopping down on a stump and expecting deer to come parading past are long gone.There's no one moving them and they don't have to get up and constantly search for food.I'll sit for a few hours on the first day and maybe for an hour after first light from that point on.I pretty much spend the rest of my time still hunting extremely slowly with the wind in my face in areas where I fully expect deer to be.There's a little more to it than that but that's what I do.Deer are masters at evading humans.Just because you don't see them,doesn't mean they aren't there.I'll give you one little trick,other than watching the wind.Smoke up your cloths.I cover myself and all my cloths and gear with smoke.I smell like a barbeque grill when I get done.You wouldn't believe how many deer I walk right up to.It's simply amazing.I play the wind religeously but when I do run into another hunter,almost every single time they have the wind at their back.Two years ago I was hunting on Moshannon state forest off of Mountain run road.It was the first morning and I was still hunting along a bench on an old skidder trail.Two different groups of deer came above me but it was too thick for a shot.Around the next bend,I run into this guy walking strait at me,hands in his pockets with the wind at his back.Right of the bat he starts yammering about no deer,gameless commission yada, yadaI almsot gave him some pointers but just let him go on his way.I was gutting a deer a little over an hour later and had seen something like 18 deer and never got off that skidder trail.My point is,personal sightings or lack thereof,including mine really don't mean squat.If you're hunting where there's adequate food and cover,you're gonna miss a heck of a lot more than you see.Winter tells a much better tale.Get out after a fresh snow and see what's out there.I've yet to find one place with decent habitat that isn't all tracked up in the winter unless it's a fairly high elevation.If we get a fair amount of snow early in the year,you won't find any deer in the higher elevations,regardless of the food supply.Up north,the deer head into the valleys once the snow piles up some which is why the regeneration on ridgetops is almost always better than it is in the lower elevations.THAT'S A FACT.That regeneration is helpful during mild winters when the deer are spread out over more of the available habitat.It's absolutely worthless when we have bad winters because the deer aren't there to take advantage of it.In order to overwinter more deer,we need much better browse and habitat in the low lying areas and that's hard to get.There is no doubt that we have a lot less deer today than 20 years.Less deer was vitally important and it is making a difference.Still,the hunting can still be very good.Honest to God,I've been hunting for 31 years and the last five have been the best and they keep getting better.I don't base my season on how many deer I see.It's a factor but the opportunities and overall experience are at an all time high.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2012 18:24:26 GMT -5
I saw eleven deer all rifle season that's 9 more then last year. There was a great acorn crop where I hunted with cover I had seven days to hunt and saw at least one deer a day. It should be up next year because there was hardly anyone out with the weather and people just getting tired of not seeing anything. A disabled guy hunted all two weeks of the season and he saw maybe 5 deer he is fed up as well. I think it will be better next year because of the lack of pressure this year.
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Post by richg on Dec 11, 2012 18:58:45 GMT -5
OK Brad and Doug.Against my better judgements I'll shave my legs for that group hug. Back in the day I shot most my deer still hunting the benches Doug.I did some this year with no luck but it's definately something I'm used too.
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