Questions for PGC- Neville?????

[galthatfishes]

I have some questions for the agency, if Neville or anyone else here can or is willing to address them.

Its been 1 month and 1 week since CWD was discovered here.

Why aren't you (the PGC) going after PDA to get them to do more; or are you? What are you doing? From what it looks like, you are placating them. I know game got their fingers whacked over the bat issue and that lead to the IRRC bill and the hunting license fee Decrease bill. Does that have anything to do with it?

Why isn't the PGC taking the lead on the interagency task force?
I know deer farms are under the purview of PDA; but what is the policy of the Game Commission AND Ag regarding these escaped deer? Why no executive order from game or Ag that deer with pink ear tags can be shot on site? Has game suggested it?

It just seems to me that game has a far greater grasp and knowledge base than does Ag. Since the task force IS interagency; why are you taking a back seat?

Why are the meetings between Ag and Game so secret? You have to be having them to at least coordinate these public meetings.

Is the PGC pushing for legislation to eliminate CLO's? More stringent laws or regulations to protect the wild herd such as a double fence with a defined distance to protect the nose to nose contact; lessen the chance for escaped, etc?

Any word on either escaped? The second deer escaped in Blair Courty from the Nelson deer farm and its a deer that Rutter sold to Freedom Whitetails and then Freedom sold to Nelson; or at least thats what my source in Ag told me. Its been escaped since June for heavens sake!

Are there any more escaped than just the TWO we know of from quarantined facilities? Whats sickening is both of the escaped are known to have had direct contact with the infected deer.

How many farms are quarantined now?

I should have an update from my friend tomorrow on what Ag is (or isn't) doing.

[galthatfishes]

So you sign on, read it, and don't answer?

How about SOME answers then?

[dennyf]

I would expect that there are certain things that are not going to be openly discussed on a "public" site, for starters?

But can be exposed by asking such questions in a public meeting forum, like the two that have been held and the one being held Monday night in New Oxford.

I also suspect there are limits on how much one agency can publicly criticize another, for that matter.

And it is no secret that PGC has been essentially "hamstrung" on this issue, by virtue of having been stripped of any authority over captive cervids by our fabulous Legislature.

I asked a question at the Task Force meeting two weeks ago, that didn't go over well with AG's vet. I inquired if they were following the same procedures for CWD, that they would if they were dealing with a domestic livestock disease of a similar contagious nature. He said yes, but I have yet to see anything indicating that they are?

There are many unaswered questions; Many undisclosed procedures and actions (or lack thereof); And far too many in the hunting community that are criticizing PGC for something that they have no control over, per the comments reported in the press from the two public meetings.

[Deleted]

Kathy Denny pretty much said what I wanted to so I will leave it at that. You are attacking the wrong people, the legislators that sponsored the legislation to give captive cervids to AG are the ones who should be answering questions as to why they gave the responsibility to an agency that in no way was or is prepared to handle it.

[dennyf]

Am thoroughly familiar with why cervids went to AG.

Was at the BOC meeting when the lobby was packed with grumbling cervid farmers (recall that quite a few were Amish) and followed how they pestered certain legislators to give them "relief".

Did kinda forget who one of the chief architects of that stupidity was, but one of your former colleagues reminded me of who it was, when I asked. I'm older now and can't remember everything I've ever learned. Sometimes forget how to tie my boot laces, if I get up too early.



Wasn't attacking anyone, merely stating the obvious.

[Deleted]

Yup, they didn;t want to obey any rules so they wanted Ag who looks the other way. The legislators who made the switch should now be bombarded with questions from constitituents asking why they aren't making Ag do the job they gave them to do!

[galthatfishes]

Why do you think any of this is coming out John! I have a friend in Ag who has been giving me info. The legislature heard NOTHING until I emailed the legislature and copied Ag; letting the proverbial cat out of the bag regarding escaped deer!

Guess what? No mention from Ag to the legislature about the SECOND escaped deer that came from Rutters. None!

At this point, I'm upset with everyone! Not so pset with game as frustrated. Ask them for information on this? Silence. No matter who you talk to they tell you "You are going to have to discuss it with Ag"

And now my friend at Ag is telling me they have to call me from HOME because Ag is looking for the leak and may be monitoring cell records. Really? Its that much of a National Security issue that we have to make our employees feel threatened??

I DO want to know why Game hasn't issued an executive order that any hunter may now kill the feral deer with the PINK or YELLOW ear tags. If they CAN"T issue one, I'd like to know why!

There are not one, but TWO deer that came from Rutters infected farm that have been exposed to CWD- one in Adams County, and one in Blair Co/Huntington area.

Many deer hunters won't shoot a doe. They see them at a distance, and don't even give a second look. Maybe they are one of the many who never buy a doe tag. Issue an executive order- fill the hunters in on what has happened in those two WMUs (one DMA) and I promise you; ever hunter in that area will pull his or her binoculars out of their pocket to check to see if there is a tag.

If there is and a safe shot presents, no tag needed. Shoot the damn thing and call Ag or Game or whomever to get it tested.

And why is Game taking a back seat on the task force? Its now POTENTIALLY in our wild herd thanks to Ag's incompetence, and single fencing and other lax requirements that Ag has. Ag is obviously way in over their heads. Its not as if this is soley a deer farm issue now.

[rwj]

The easy answer is , the PGC isnt in charge Ag is. Its that simple. Where was all this concern when cervids were removed from PGC oversite?

The PGC cant dictate action and policy to another agency.

[galthatfishes]

Not saying they can Rich. But once these things are in the wild herd, IMO; they are FERAL and pose a risk. Since they are mainly the exact same species as our wild deer; who is responsible for them OUTSIDE of the fence? The one in Blair has been on the loose since JUNE for crying out loud. The deer farmer isn't allowed to take it back even if he finds it. So who does the thing belong to?

[Dutch]

In Indiana, they have pretty much told hunters to kill any deer with an ear tag and turn it in. Here, we wait for APHIS.........

900,000 deputies are better than a few APHS sharpshooters. Now wait, we thought APHIS was gonna take care of the feral hogs way back when by trapping them. LOL

[galthatfishes]

Yep. Exactly. I said that in a recent email.

[melody]

Wouldn't matter what role the PGC takes with the task force. Because the task force has no legal authority. It's just another ad hoc committee that can do no more than offer advice. Just like the "response plan" is nothing more than a recommended course of action.

[Deleted]

I'd be willing to bet, that in this case as with other political things, these Departments or Agencies have been firewalled off from each other on purpose... much like law enforcement pre-9/11... so that when situations arise, there is enough of a firewall to give people with political interests, good or bad, time to CYA. That's why there shouldn't be anymore "review committees" or BS like them. Just creates more ways to pass the buck.

Is that tin-foil hat enough for you?

Gal: I appreciate your frustration. Someone has to keep the fire lit.

[neville]

Because the positive CWD deer was found in the captive herd, Dept of Ag has the lead on the task force. At the weekly Task Force meetings we have asked the Dept of Ag to provide information in a timelier manner and that the previous farm without the fence should be re-fenced. They claim legal issues with re-fencing the farm.
If the deer was found in the wild herd, we would have the lead. As of right now we do not have CWD in the wild herd. We are not taking a back seat. For example we designed, built and gave Ag the GIS map with the locations of the quarantined deer farms for the public to be informed. We have scheduled 4 meetings with public and have paid for the locations in some cases. We have provide tons of printing material, we have and are mailing letters to every hunter in York and Adams county and hunters in the northern tier of Maryland and we have proved signs to sports shops/stores and sportsman’s clubs to be posted. We are contracting for a meat processor and taxidermist to be at the check site on out SGL. We have done a lot. Ag has little money or wherewithal to do much.
The task force meetings are not secret they are held every Thurs morning, but are not open to the public. The meetings consist of all members of the task force to include DEP and Health as well as others.
As far as escapees are concerned we only find out about them if we get informed by a local person or Ag gets informed. Not much action on the later as we believe that Ag does not routinely get informed. We did not know about the escaped deer in “Blair” until very recently.
As we mentioned last night to the sportsmen of Adams County, they would be more successful in getting legislation passed than would the PGC. My personal opinion is to close down all behind the fence cervid operations.
As of Nov 13, there are 23 individuals and 28 locations that are quarantined.

[melody]

Thanks Joe for the response. I'm sure the PGC is just as frustrated as we are over the way things are being handled.

Could the PGC and/or Ag, by executive order, declare that any escaped deer with tags in its ears, be allowed to be killed on sight, with or without the proper license or tags, and turned over to the agency? And if so, why have they not done this?

Also, PFSC, as well as a representative of QDMA and the Cervid industry, were a part of the original task force a few years ago. Why have we not been invited to participate now?

[dennyf]

Joe, thanks for the reply and many of us are also frustrated by the lack of transparency from AG on this issue.

I don't know what more could by done by PGC to inform the public, but it annoys me to no end that every public meeting produces the same complaints from hunters, most of whom apparently still have no clue as to which agency controls captive cervids in PA.



And Melody has posed a good question, as to participation on the Task Force. While we (PFSC) were invited to and attended the Nov. 2 meeting, no invitations nor notifications have been forthcoming from AG. Apparently they prefer keeping us in the dark as much as possible?

But if they're more concerned with updating cervid farmers on developments, than they are about informing the public, then something needs to be done.

[ridgecommander]

Personally, being a outside abserver watching this unfold closely, I believe that the PGC has been the most transparent and proactive agency or entity as far as getting information distributed, educating the public and instituting their readied plan almost immediately. This from a agency that does not have the lead here and is not responsible for the outbreak.

I may not agree with all of the plan but I commend them for being proactive and ready.

[neville]

The thing to remember is that at this point this is a captive cervid/deer farm issue NOT a wild deer issue. Although we hope for the best and prepare for what may be inevitable, this is currently a PDA led issue. Most of the issues you’ve raised are PDA issues. However, the PGC has:
- Called for and held various public meetings (4)
- Produced handouts and printed/distributed tens of thousands of them
- Produced maps and signage and hung them in the DMA
- Shown a Powerpoint to hundreds explaining what CWD is, what it means, etc.
- Updated our website with new information
- Produced maps for PDA
- Reached out to processors and taxidermists
- Been available to the media for numerous interviews
- Set up a check station that will be manned by 50+ employees on November 26th
- The check station will include a media availability area to further transparency with our publics
- Sent out 47,000 letters to our hunters at a cost of ~ $50,000.00 educating them on CWD

For an issue found ( to date) solely in captive deer operations, hunters will have spent $500,000 by January. Sobering isn’t it? We feel it is the right thing to do.

[melody]

Speaking of expenditures.....did the Governor's office approve the spending, or have you had to make cuts elsewhere to free up "budget" monies to cover these expenses?

[neville]

I should hear more later in the week.

Even w/o making cuts our time and energy expenditures have certainly been diverted.

[galthatfishes]

Thanks Joe. I appreciate your candor. I saw you at the one meeting; and I gave Ag hell. I've been the proverbial thorn in their side; and will continue to be so; but needed some "firm" answers because SOME of them (in Ag and legislature); behind closed doors; have said the PGC should take MORE of a role.

Didn't think you could for the reasons you stated and I made that clear. But I sure feel a lot better knowing I was spot on. I DO NOT like to be wrong.

Can you point me to Ag's regulations on area requirements for the deer, habitat requirements, or any other regulations they may have put in place for the operations?

Thanks

[wentzler]

From the hinterlands..
...Bear season here brings a double handful of local raised folks back home from far western PA. The 'hunter knowledge' of the CWD situation is woefully..nil Of course some of the sons who joined us this year had toted along their in yer pocket computers, and I directed them to this forum so as they could read up a bit. Still baffles me after all these years how some who profess to love the outdoor pursuits don't know how to stay 'current' in their thinking and awareness.

However..

The good news is...good young people, good families, good people..and NOW they know..at least where to go fer starters I've always said, 'our' end of the game, unfortunately, is one of recruitment one or two at a time. The other side is born that way ..and if enlightenment should spontaneously/miraculously/ purposefully occur...then requires at least a smidge of gumption to act.

I had an easy place from which to start our several hours long discussion of this issue, and of our Game Agency. As most of you know I always speak well of our Agency and those who work together with them to assure we have opportunities like we thoroughly enjoyed Saturday and ..yesterday:) Ya'll'd be pleased with how the young folk appreciate what they have as a result.

Now they know a bit more about how and why...and what it will take on their parts to see their own sons and daughters have the same opportunities.

I told 'em next year we'd discuss and cuss the other side of the equation

Thank you..ALL fer all yer efforts!!

ed

[dennyf]

Them what were taught to seek knowledge, generally figure out how to find it. Everyone else is pretty much doomed to ignorance.

And many are happy to wallow in it, eternally.

[neville]

Not sure where to find AG's regs. I never looked. I'll ask.

[neville]

You can reference this on PDA’s home page (www.agriculture.state.pa.us) …on the left side click on Legal Library, then use the drop down to select a topic. Their regs are under more than one title (e.g., Title 3, Title 7, etc.). or use the link below…



www.agriculture.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_24476_10297_0_43/AgWebsite/LegalSearch.aspx?navid=13&parentnavid=0&