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Post by buzz on Oct 6, 2014 12:37:06 GMT -5
The road to the Kellogg Fire tower is Forest rd, and is right beside a old farm house. I believe that Chesapeake put a well (Lyons well) out there, and re did part of the road. Making it a shared road for a little ways. There could be a possibility that your wife accidently took the road toward the CHK well, and came upon there white gate, and not the correct road that went to the PGC gate? I have not been out there since the well went in, so I do not know how it lays.
Not sure how far of a drive It is for you, but only about 20 minutes for me. If it would help, I could ride out there tomorrow morning and check it out, and get back to you.
Option 2, call Charlie Fox. He is on the PGC board of Commissioners, and lives near Troy (Pisgah Rd), he should be able to help confirm that is the designated Handicap accessible road, and make sure the signs are up , if they aren't currently.
We do not have a local WCO to call, as he resign last month, but Charlie would probably be willing to help.
As I said, let me know if it would help if I drove out and checked it out for you, I would be more than willing to do that to help you and your son.
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Post by davet on Oct 6, 2014 12:45:06 GMT -5
Rkeving, just a few matters that you have brought up that you may or may not be aware of. So, in the interest of addressing them, let me do so. Please don't think I'm "talking down" to you or that I'm assuming you don't already understand this. Your previous post don't indicate that you do or don't understand what I'm about to post...so I'll just "have at it" anyway.
#1--On your private land. You may have hunters stationed along the outer perimeter of your land, however, these individuals are not...unless you have given them permission, allowed to shoot into or across your property. Should they shoot a bullet or arrow into or across your property, at a deer standing on your property or at a deer standing on public property where the projectile had to have crossed your land, then these individuals have committed trespass on your property. In addition, should a deer that they have shot on property other than yours, run onto your property and die, they are not permitted to retrieve said deer unless you grant them permission. Now, that being said, the dead deer is also NOT yours to take either. You cannot tag said deer either because you did not kill said deer. So, your only option is to let the hunter take the deer, or leave the deer to rot. I'm not going to get ethical here, I'm just pointing out your options.
#2--A phone call or snail mail or email to the Pa. Game Commissioner's office to state your position or to ask for the interactive map to include disability information, or ask that singage be posted that indicates disability access is good. However keep in mind that for Public Game Lands, none of those lands were purchased with taxpayer dollars. The game lands were purchased with hunting license proceeds 100%. You can mention that you are a Pennsylvania taxpayer, but concerning Pa. Game Lands, that doesn't carry a lot of weight. Mentioning you have been a hunter since say.....1970 will at least get you a raised eyebrow......maybe.
#3-- I've mentioned this before, but I'll post it again. Because your son is permanently bound to a wheelchair, he does qualify for a "shoot from a vehicle permit." Now, this will allow him to use not only a auto or truck as a blind, but your ATV as well. And it also grants him the benefit of not being subject to antler restriction. So, should he see a nice high rack 4 point, he is allowed to shoot it. And there are some very nice big 4 pointers running around out there. But....his choice if he wants to do that.
#4--Also, because he is permanently bound to a wheelchair, he does not "have" to hunt just the handicapped areas. Now, understand that he cannot (under current law....which I find frustrating as......you know....) use his ATV, but he CAN use his push wheelchair. Or, once he obtains his "shoot from a vehicle permit", he CAN pull OFF THE ROAD, shut off the vehicle, and use the vehicle as a blind....or simply pull off the road and get out and sit in his wheelchair like any normal guy would sit in a chair and hunt by the road. However, if he were to obtain an electric wheelchair (yes....one of those darn expensive track one's) he can go ANYWHERE HE WANT'S TO on public property. He is not limited to just the disabled access roads or trails.
FWIW
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 13:18:52 GMT -5
Once again, thanks Dave.
As to the hunters sitting on my property line? Yep, I patrol them hard and Yep, I'm not afraid to walk up to them and give them the 3rd degree. When it comes to my son though, I have to think about his safety first, and also about how he perceives dealing with other hunters, especially when they are doing what they are supposed to. I guess since he's about 17, time for Dad to back off a bit on the parenting part though..
We were given an electric chair, but the batteries were shot and we couldn't afford to repair it. Started looking into other electric options, but then found the ATV side of things, so started pursuing that.
Good info about the taxpayer aspect. You just saved me from making a fool of myself on that point. Will pursue the "sportsman since......." line, instead. ;-)
Thanks again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 13:22:54 GMT -5
The road to the Kellogg Fire tower is Forest rd, and is right beside a old farm house. I believe that Chesapeake put a well (Lyons well) out there, and re did part of the road. Making it a shared road for a little ways. There could be a possibility that your wife accidently took the road toward the CHK well, and came upon there white gate, and not the correct road that went to the PGC gate? I have not been out there since the well went in, so I do not know how it lays. Not sure how far of a drive It is for you, but only about 20 minutes for me. If it would help, I could ride out there tomorrow morning and check it out, and get back to you. Option 2, call Charlie Fox. He is on the PGC board of Commissioners, and lives near Troy (Pisgah Rd), he should be able to help confirm that is the designated Handicap accessible road, and make sure the signs are up , if they aren't currently. We do not have a local WCO to call, as he resign last month, but Charlie would probably be willing to help. As I said, let me know if it would help if I drove out and checked it out for you, I would be more than willing to do that to help you and your son. We might actually try to come out tomorrow, if schedule and weather work out. If we do, we will come in by the Overton side, and then see if we can find the Parking location near the gate that davet pointed out. We tried making a call to Boo Perry, but so far, haven't gotten a reply. He's retired, but thought he might know something, or who to contact. I'm leery of some of the wardens down this way, and up Troy way too. Heard some pretty bad stories about people getting the shakedown, and not deservingly so. Enough guys around these parts (specially the out of staters) need the visit more than some of the locals. Another reason I want to have this ATV thing 100 % right. Don't need the boy getting read the riot act for making an innocent mistake, caused by a poorly written map and a poorly posted trail.
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Post by buzz on Oct 6, 2014 14:32:44 GMT -5
Just took the trip out there to figure it out.
You do need to take the road to the well site, as the old road that ran beside the house is not being used. Go out the road toward the well site, and you will come to a stop sign, with the well pad directly ahead......looks like this
At that stop sign, you need to turn left and take the road that goes up the hill. (note: if you look to the right you can see where the old road is)
As you go up this road, you will question if it is correct, as there are posted no hunting signs along the way. The bottom portion is private ground, but the PGC road runs through it, and is legal access. About 1/4 to 1/2 mile up it, you will come to the game lands sign and gate. The gate is open, and has this sign on it.
Keep going up the road. I will note that from Weston road to the spot where the fire tower used to be, is just shy of 3 miles. This is a steep road, with lots of switch backs, I would recommend 4x4 vehicle. Not saying a car couldn't make it, but not advisable. As you are going up, you will not it is very steep terrain, not good for your son in a wheelchair. Once you get to the top, you will find the top to be quite wide, with several parking areas, and places he should be able to get away from the road. It is heavy with laurel in a lot of it, but still some areas he may be able to get through. At the end of that road, you will find the old building by where the fire tower stood.......it looks like this
Areas around there looked best for his access. There is another gate out there that is closed.
I know this does not fix the problem of the lack of signs. But the PGC leaves gates open in certain areas like this for hunter access, and may consider that their version of handicap accessible ? They do the same thing out near Camp Brule, which is out past Overton, should you be looking for other areas.
Also, not sure what direction you are coming from, but the most scenic route to get there is deep hollow, the quickest would be to Monroeton, then to Powell, to Weston Road.
Hope this helps.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 15:00:43 GMT -5
Awesome. Thanks for the pix and detailed info. When the wife gets home, I will have her look at these and see if anything looks familiar, as she is the one that came in from this side- I have always come in (tried to come in......) from the lower side.
In the paperwork that comes with the ATV permit, he is supposed to be allowed to navigate the entire length of the trail (9 miles in this case), and also go perpendicular to the road 100 yrds to set up a place to hunt. (As long as he doesn't cross any streams, ponds, marshes, etc). This is why I want to see that handicap placard for sure- to make sure we are on the right road and that he can, in fact, go up to 100 yrds off the road to hunt.
This SGL was the closest to us, and we figured it would be our "test model" to figure out: how easy to find, how easy to navigate, is it worth it, and what kind of problems/issues we might have to deal with once we are there. So far, we've swung the bat alot, but haven't made any kind of real contact. Getting closer though, and every input from you guys is very helpful and much appreciated.
Thanks.
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Post by buzz on Oct 6, 2014 15:47:33 GMT -5
Keep in mind you can not see that stop sign or well site from Weston road, you need to drive out the CHK lease road toward the well site, roughly 500 yards. It is actually straight behind the house a couple hundred yards....if that. I did not see any signs along the road anywhere saying anything about handicap. You can actually take that road all across the top of Kellogg, and it brings you out near the Southern end of Deep Hollow, just before Hatch Hill. Been a lot of years since I did that, road used to go through Cobtown swamp. Gates at both ends, and always closed. I would not be afraid to call Charlie Fox for confirmation of use of the atv. He was a dept game warden forever with Bill Bower. Sits on the BOC now, but down to earth guy who will get you the answer you need.
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Post by zimmerstutzen on Oct 6, 2014 15:50:06 GMT -5
I see what you mean Davet, but the statute and regs seem to state differently: 7702. Definitions. The following words and phrases when used in this chapter shall have, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise, the meanings given to them in this section: "All-terrain vehicle" or "ATV." A motorized off-highway vehicle which travels on three or more off-highway tires and which has: (1) a maximum width of 50 inches and a maximum dry weight of 1,200 pounds; or (2) a width which exceeds 50 inches or a dry weight which exceeds 1,200 pounds. ATV's described in paragraph (1) may be referred to as Class I ATV's, and ATV's described in paragraph (2) may be referred to as Class II ATV's. This term does not include snowmobiles, trail bikes, motorboats, golf carts, aircraft, dune buggies, automobiles, construction machines, trucks or home utility machines; military, fire, emergency and law enforcement vehicles; implements of husbandry; multipurpose agricultural vehicles; vehicles used by the department; or any vehicle that is or is required to be registered under Chapter 13 (relating to registration of vehicles). In addition, this term does not include off-road motor vehicles used exclusively as utility vehicles for agricultural or business operations and incidentally operated or moved upon the highway.
§ 135.50. Definitions. The following words and terms, when used in this section and § § 135.49 and 135.51—135.55, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:
ATV—All-terrain vehicle— (i) A Class I ATV as defined in 75 Pa.C.S. § 7702(1) (relating to definitions), or a motorized off-highway vehicle 58 inches or less in width, having a dry weight of 900 pounds or less traveling on four or more low-pressure tires and having a bench seat. (ii) The term does not include a motorized off-highway vehicle excluded from the definition of the term ‘‘all-terrain vehicle or ATV’’ under 75 Pa.C.S. § 7702.
There seems to be a variance between the two. A class 1 under section 7702 is max width 50 inches and less than 1,200 lbs But the PGC reg does not permit Class 2 under section 7702, but permits "a motorized off-highway vehicle 58 inches or less in width, having a dry weight of 900 pounds or less traveling on four or more low-pressure tires and having a bench seat. " So even though a Class 2 ATV can be up to 1,200 pounds, the PGC limit is 900 pounds.
Further, the exclusion language of section 7702 still applies, i.e. no golf carts. Not all Class 2 ATV's are permitted to run on the SGL for disabled. They must have 4 or more wheels, a bench seat flotation tires and less than 900 lbs.
Is your golf cart less than 50 inches wide? if not, even though licensed as an ATV, it would not be permitted under the regs because it is over 900 lbs.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 15:57:44 GMT -5
You can actually take that road all across the top of Kellogg, and it brings you out near the Southern end of Deep Hollow, just before Hatch Hill. Been a lot of years since I did that, road used to go through Cobtown swamp. Gates at both ends, and always closed. From the latitude and longitude lines that davet supplied, it looks like the end of the trail @ Deep Hollow should be the one with the parking area for the Towing Vehicle, and the gate for the disabled access. From his measurements, it would be about the 9 miles to the Tower site from there. Either tomorrow or Thursday, I need to run to New Albany anyway (need Dad's grinder to make some more venison sausage, and to grind some of the Pronghorn). We will try check out that end of the trail on whatever day we go out and see what things look like from there. <fingers crossed> Hoping to be able to post a picture of the Handicap sign and give high fives all around here. If not, I will contact Charlie and see if he can give me some direction. Thanks again. PS: Been quite a few years since I ran the roads over Overton/Hatch Hill way.......... are there still active Sasquatch sightings out there? (I believe most were influenced by the Mountainhouse Inn visits........)
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Post by zimmerstutzen on Oct 6, 2014 16:00:43 GMT -5
Under the current regs, my 3 wheel truck could be licensed as an ATV, 52 inches wide, bench seat, under 900 pounds, but only three wheels. Wouldn't be permitted on the SGL's because of having only three wheels.
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Post by buzz on Oct 6, 2014 16:03:30 GMT -5
That end of the trail is just down past Hatch hill road, as you go by the last cabin, it is on the right, should be marked and easy to find. As I recall, it is quite a ways out that road to the parking area and the gate. Been quite a while since I was out there as well. Also keep in mind, there is a gated road out there that goes down Satterly Hollow and winds up by rt220, below the old Mapleleaf bar......not the same road that goes to fire tower, but both are right there in the same area.
Killed a Cinnamon bear out there 30 years ago........
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 16:14:18 GMT -5
That end of the trail is just down past Hatch hill road, as you go by the last cabin, it is on the right, should be marked and easy to find. As I recall, it is quite a ways out that road to the parking area and the gate. Been quite a while since I was out there as well. Also keep in mind, there is a gated road out there that goes down Satterly Hollow and winds up by rt220, below the old Mapleleaf bar......not the same road that goes to fire tower, but both are right there in the same area.
Killed a Cinnamon bear out there 30 years ago........ We saw the Parking area next to the road, and even got out and read the signs. We didn't realize that there was another parking area, farther up behind it, with a gate. We just got back in the truck and drove farther up the road. Our assumption is: Hey, if there is a "designated" place for disabled/special needs individuals, wouldn't it make perfect sense to have it right along the road, and clearly marked, and easy to get to and blatantly obvious and......... Needless to say, our expectations were a bit much. I assume from my reading of the paperwork, that the ATV usage can ONLY be on the "designated road". So, at that rate, any road we would try to hunt from needs to be fairly flat and smooth. My son can push fairly well on a decent pathway, but his dad is feeling some of the old age stuff and doesn't always fare too well as a pack mule or steam engine.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 18:11:16 GMT -5
My sister inlaw has spina bifida she will be 31 this month. I know what its about. wish your son luck this year. A bit off topic but...... We just went to Wyoming and my son pushed his wheelchair over a mile, over the sage grass and cactus, to take a 444 yrd shot at a pronghorn buck. Then, over another mile to claim his trophy and get back to the vehicle. If you go to WNEP's PA Outdoor Life People and Places slideshow: wnep.com/2014/07/24/2014-people-and-places-slideshow-5/ you can see a pic of him with his antelope. So, after going through this success, we come home to find the "headache" of trying out how to hunt public land in our own backyard. Yikes! Cool story and pic! Congrats to your son! My sister in-law use to work at the dmv but couldn't work a full 8 hours because of her back and whoever took it over said if you can't work a full 8 hour shift you don't have a job. It was nice to get her out and around people and now she doesn't do much of anything. Wonder who the genius was who made that rule? Just nice to see your son being active.
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Post by buzz on Oct 6, 2014 19:20:32 GMT -5
We saw the Parking area next to the road, and even got out and read the signs. We didn't realize that there was another parking area, farther up behind it, with a gate. We just got back in the truck and drove farther up the road. Our assumption is: Hey, if there is a "designated" place for disabled/special needs individuals, wouldn't it make perfect sense to have it right along the road, and clearly marked, and easy to get to and blatantly obvious and......... Needless to say, our expectations were a bit much. I assume from my reading of the paperwork, that the ATV usage can ONLY be on the "designated road". So, at that rate, any road we would try to hunt from needs to be fairly flat and smooth. My son can push fairly well on a decent pathway, but his dad is feeling some of the old age stuff and doesn't always fare too well as a pack mule or steam engine. I have not been up Deep Hollow in a quite a few years. There used to be a few parking areas along the road, but none of them were actually where the road to fire tower, or Satterly hollow was. If you are coming in from Overton, when you go past Hatch Hill rd, there are some cabins , the first PGC road on the right.....past the cabins....always took you back in.....I am guessing here, but maybe a 1/2 mile to a gate and parking area. There was never a gate where the pgc road started off from Deep Hollow, just one back in. That may have changed in recent years.
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Post by davet on Oct 6, 2014 21:19:41 GMT -5
I see what you mean Davet, but the statute and regs seem to state differently: 7702. Definitions. The following words and phrases when used in this chapter shall have, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise, the meanings given to them in this section: "All-terrain vehicle" or "ATV." A motorized off-highway vehicle which travels on three or more off-highway tires and which has: (1) a maximum width of 50 inches and a maximum dry weight of 1,200 pounds; or (2) a width which exceeds 50 inches or a dry weight which exceeds 1,200 pounds. ATV's described in paragraph (1) may be referred to as Class I ATV's, and ATV's described in paragraph (2) may be referred to as Class II ATV's. This term does not include snowmobiles, trail bikes, motorboats, golf carts, aircraft, dune buggies, automobiles, construction machines, trucks or home utility machines; military, fire, emergency and law enforcement vehicles; implements of husbandry; multipurpose agricultural vehicles; vehicles used by the department; or any vehicle that is or is required to be registered under Chapter 13 (relating to registration of vehicles). In addition, this term does not include off-road motor vehicles used exclusively as utility vehicles for agricultural or business operations and incidentally operated or moved upon the highway. § 135.50. Definitions. The following words and terms, when used in this section and § § 135.49 and 135.51—135.55, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise: ATV—All-terrain vehicle— (i) A Class I ATV as defined in 75 Pa.C.S. § 7702(1) (relating to definitions), or a motorized off-highway vehicle 58 inches or less in width, having a dry weight of 900 pounds or less traveling on four or more low-pressure tires and having a bench seat. (ii) The term does not include a motorized off-highway vehicle excluded from the definition of the term ‘‘all-terrain vehicle or ATV’’ under 75 Pa.C.S. § 7702. There seems to be a variance between the two. A class 1 under section 7702 is max width 50 inches and less than 1,200 lbs But the PGC reg does not permit Class 2 under section 7702, but permits "a motorized off-highway vehicle 58 inches or less in width, having a dry weight of 900 pounds or less traveling on four or more low-pressure tires and having a bench seat. " So even though a Class 2 ATV can be up to 1,200 pounds, the PGC limit is 900 pounds. Further, the exclusion language of section 7702 still applies, i.e. no golf carts. Not all Class 2 ATV's are permitted to run on the SGL for disabled. They must have 4 or more wheels, a bench seat flotation tires and less than 900 lbs. Is your golf cart less than 50 inches wide? if not, even though licensed as an ATV, it would not be permitted under the regs because it is over 900 lbs. Well, if you look at the EZ-GO web site here: link my TXT model is listed as 47" wide. However, I have rubber mud flares on the fenders which actually brings the width to about 53". The standard weight is listed as 935-LBS, but I have additional batteries and with each battery weighing 50-LB each, I'm just over the 1,000-LB mark. I know it's "splitting hairs" and when I made my application I used the standard measurements, but the DCNR really looked at my pics and changed my classification to a Class 2. Well, that's pretty arguable since the flares flex when going by a tree or obstacle, etc. but...it is what it is. So, I believe they classified my cart as a Class II because it was looked at as being wider than 50". The weight factor was probably looked at as "fuzzy" and quite frankly, I've never actually put the cart on a scale. OTOH, with the new Nissan Leaf batteries that are out now, these batteries can be purchased and "assembled" to a 48-volt capacity, and cut the battery weight from the current weight of 500-LBS, to less than 250-LBS, while at the same time increasing the run distance from my current 12 miles, to about 45 miles. So, needless to say....the future is looking better. I suppose my cart qualifies on SGL's as a class II because they "assume" it weigh's less than 900-LBS, or just at 900-LBS. Hey....I weigh 212-LBs. Would it really be different if I weighed 298-LBs and the cart was 950, or if I weighed 212-LBS and the cart weighed 1,025-LBS? Aren't we really splitting hairs at this point? Plus, the DCNR wanted pictures of my cart to see if in fact my cart could still be used as a golf cart. Obviously, it is no where near an original golf cart. Well, it could be used as a golf cart as much as my Simplicity lawn tractor could be used as one. Plus the word "dry weight" is a bit fuzzy. For a gas operated machine, it would be one with an empty tank. For an electric one like mine, would it not be one with all of the water drained from my batteries? That certainly would be "dry weight." Under the current regs, my 3 wheel truck could be licensed as an ATV, 52 inches wide, bench seat, under 900 pounds, but only three wheels. Wouldn't be permitted on the SGL's because of having only three wheels. No way to "slim down" the width to 50" on your 3-wheeler huh? That sure would be the ticket if it's a reliable machine. Dave
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Post by davet on Oct 6, 2014 21:32:02 GMT -5
We saw the Parking area next to the road, and even got out and read the signs. We didn't realize that there was another parking area, farther up behind it, with a gate. We just got back in the truck and drove farther up the road. Our assumption is: Hey, if there is a "designated" place for disabled/special needs individuals, wouldn't it make perfect sense to have it right along the road, and clearly marked, and easy to get to and blatantly obvious and......... Needless to say, our expectations were a bit much. I assume from my reading of the paperwork, that the ATV usage can ONLY be on the "designated road". So, at that rate, any road we would try to hunt from needs to be fairly flat and smooth. My son can push fairly well on a decent pathway, but his dad is feeling some of the old age stuff and doesn't always fare too well as a pack mule or steam engine. I think, as I read a bit more of your post, that you don't actually own an ATV. I may be incorrect in this assumption, I'm unsure of that. Your son is young and obviously very strong in his upper body (and mentally as well.....God bless him as I could not come close to what he can do!!!). Now, that being said there are many SGL paths that any healthy individuals can simply walk on, yet are closed to vehicle traffic. Yet, your son, because of his disability can...if he wants to, simply wheel himself on these very trails. Of course, I realize these trails must be somewhat flat and "wheelchair friendly" in order for him to use them....but again, these trails don't have to be disabled access trails. Because your son is permanently bound to a wheel chair, he can use those trails\paths also. (I know I said this before....and I'm not trying to beat you up over this, just making sure I've made my point. At times I think I make a point, only to find out later that my brain said I did.....and my fingers never typed it out. Man.....I hate when that happens!!!) Dave
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 8:09:16 GMT -5
We do have an ATV- 2002 Polaris 325 Magnum 4x4. It's always been the "trade off" that we have had to deal with versus him just physically pushing his wheelchair. Let me first off say though, that while it might have only taken a few minutes to read about him pushing his w/c 2 miles on his pronghorn hunt, in reality, it was hours. And those were hard gruesome hours. Hard for him to push that far and through that terrain (flat as it was), and hard for me to watch.
There is no way to be stealthy in an ATV. Noisy getting in and out. Can't block the smells (gas, exhaust, engine, etc). Every time he shifts his weight, it might squeak. And once he's there, he can't get off of it, unless he combat crawls, but then he can't realistically take a rifle or other equipment.
With the wheelchair, he can go quietly, but it's very slow. He cannot navigate over logs, roots or rocks. If he happens to encounter a hole or hidden obstacle, he can flip it and without help, he could be in real danger. Also, for him to carry a rifle, he has to balance it across his lap and that affects his navigation 100x. His biggest problem is after he shoots an animal, it often does not die in an accessible location. Many times, I have to be called and then go out to retrieve something that he shot, that he can't get to. Our goal here is "independence".
Another point on the w/c usage: Really the only places he can get to are the "easy" ones. Same places that are "easy" for us "non-disabled" types. One other thing about my son- he has had a total spinal fusion, i.e. he had 2 metal rods inserted into his spine with 42 screws. He is unable to pivot at the hips now. If game moves to his right or left, he needs to physically move his entire body to the right or left, along with the Field Pod that he needs to shoot from (not enough trunk strength to independently hold a rifle for a very long time (10 secs or more). This makes him slower than almost every other hunter, and with other hunters nearby, he will lose his chance.
We had an issue a few years back, when we set up in an open area with a good view over a field. Some doe were running back and forth,and we were hoping a buck would emerge. Out of nowhere, a guy sets up right next to us. He's so close, he is actually talking to us in a whisper and we can hear him. "Oh boy, there's gonna be a big one coming out of there soon", he says as he scans the area through his scope.
When I informed him that we were trying to get a deer for my disabled son (yes, I played the handicap card), he turned to me and said, "It's a free country, I can hunt wherever I want." My son looked at me, and without saying a word, we pushed our way back to our truck and drove home.
So, what's the solution? Well, in his mind, it's: If I can get far enough away from everyone else, and get to a point where others can't or won't go........ maybe I can hunt like everyone else.
So when I suggest- Hey, lets just park here along the road and hunt here, he thinks- If there is anything here, someone else is going to show up and shoot it before I can get a chance. (If you're reading this, and think "That really sucks", think about how it feels to be the father of that son.)
Well, he did a bunch of reading online about what is available to a disabled hunter, and he found out about these accessible trails on the SGLs. He read where he could drive miles deep into an SGL and then get 100 yrds off of the trail to hunt alone. What other option did I have but to try to pursue this as far as I possibly could?
We called the Dallas office and found out about the Towing Vehicle placard. (Never knew the application was included with his "shoot from a vehicle" permit!) We sent it in and got the placard and ATV sticker and permit back. We made sure his ATV was licensed with DCNR and was compliant. Then, we tried to find a place to hunt, and that's where we are at right now.
Sorry for all the drama, but this is kind of a big deal. We aren't looking for a handout or a pity party, but if someone tells me that there is something available that will let my son fulfill his hunting dreams, or will at least let him participate on an equal footing with others, then I need to pursue that. And when I find out that this is a bit more complicated than it should be....... then I need to fix it, because I know one thing: There are going to be more and more disabled sportsmen in the future, as warriors return home from battles with major injuries, and as technologies continue to save more and more infants with special needs.
Sure, my son would love to shoot a "wallhanger buck" or make an impossible shot on a ruffed grouse or fill his limit on squirrels, but then again, who wouldn't? But that is not what is being asked. All that is being asked is: Give me an equal chance to hunt like everyone else, and let the chips fall where they may. This is exactly what made our Wyoming hunt so successful. It wasn't the "trophy" that we harvested- it was the fact that we did everything on equal footing, and whether it was a hit or a miss when the trigger was pulled, WE DID IT. If the use of an ATV on a designated trail gives him that "equal footing", then that is the goal, and what we pursue. If he comes home empty handed after hours of hunting, at least he can say: I DID IT.
I appreciate everyone who has provided input and assistance here, and even those who are just lurking and reading. If nothing else, maybe some awareness has been elevated, and that's a good thing.
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Post by davet on Oct 7, 2014 9:24:15 GMT -5
Rkeving, well, I hear you on the jerk who told you it was a free country. I know all about that. I was tossed out of a local gun club for being disabled. nothing more than that. In fact, I was not given a hearing or accused of anything by any give member as required by the Club's by laws. Just tossed out. OTOH, these guys measure their manhood by if they do or don't kill a buck each year. Yeah....well, if that's the measuring stick, then their manhood is very tiny. OTOH, when I have a chance to toss a rock I take it. They can't handle the type of rocks I toss, so their attorney has to be involved. I enjoy my occasional tossing.
I also hear you on your son's torso movement. I can turn my torso, but my left leg has no strength so the "hold" position is not so good. Let's just say that "stealth" is not always the operative word here.
I know that a gas ATV is noisy, smelly, and with a saddle seat, difficult to get on. They are frankly, also difficult to drive. I have driven friends of mine 4x4's and they take much more energy to drive then my electric EZ-GO. Plus my EZ-GO is electric. No noise, no fumes, no gas. I have snuck up on deer, two fox (believe it or not) turkeys?...only pre-season and they are usually trotting away while looking back to try and figure out what is that coming over the hill??? The electric cart does require maintenance. The most being cleaning the battery terminals with baking soda water and a wire brush. That needs done monthly along with checking the battery water level. But, as long as I stay on top of that there is no real issues with it. I have upgraded the forward\reverse switch to a heavy duty solenoid type unit. Cost about $250 for that, but no more burnt wires and it's 100% reliable.
I know about hunting in "the right places." Now, I do have the ability to do short walks, but I can't wrap a drag rope on a deer and simply haul it out. I usually hunt places where I can get my cart within 100 feet of a downed deer. Then I can get a winch rope to it and drag it out on the cart winch. If that's not possible, I have to call one of my retired buddies for help. At times, another hunter will help me out....but those times are not all that often. I don't want 'em to field dress 'em....just get 'em to my winch rope. Once on the winch, I'm golden. I can winch the deer onto my truck bed, turn my cart around to sit on the back, and I field dress the deer on the tailgate. Yeah....sounds messy on the truck gate, but it's sprayed with that bed spray on stuff ...and I do have a hose at home. It all works out. Sitting on the cart really saves my back from killing me. I can no longer dress a deer on my knees.
BTW, as for wall hangers, my biggest one is the one on my icon. I got it a few years back during a January flintlock hunt. A nice 8pt with great symmetry. A young buck...and I was surprised the rack was not busted up at that time of year. Keep at it. It will get better.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2014 9:34:19 GMT -5
I hear ya. On the surface, everything looks honkey dory, but when you get down in the trenches, you find a whole new world. I could give story after story, that most would probably not believe, but no good purpose would be served, so I keep them squirreled away.
One of the biggest lessons we learned on our Wyoming hunt, is that a trophy is not necessarily measured by the size of the rack (regardless of what all these hunting shows might depict), but rather on the skill and effort that was put forth to complete the hunt, whether it ended in a kill or a miss.
I related the story to my son, of his great grandfather, who passed away in 1978. He was in a tree stand, and 2 bucks came out. He shot the 7 pointer, and his nephew shot the bigger buck. He turned to his nephew and said, "I'm so proud for you", and then he fell over dead. That buck is nowhere a trophy, but it hangs on my uncle's wall as a testament to the man that shot it.
We would all be better off if we stopped measuring our success by inches and pounds, and started measuring them more by "unseen, unknown".
Best.
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Post by davet on Oct 7, 2014 9:43:28 GMT -5
Under the current regs, my 3 wheel truck could be licensed as an ATV, 52 inches wide, bench seat, under 900 pounds, but only three wheels. Wouldn't be permitted on the SGL's because of having only three wheels. I've re-read your post and your references again. And I agree with you that a 3-wheel vehicle, so it would appear, is not permitted on SGL's. Then I went to my garage and re-measured the width of my cart. The front measures 48" in width, but the rear measures 52.5", however (as I stated) this includes the rubber mud splash guards. So...if I remove the splash guards the cart is now less than 50" in width. Of course, now I'll get mud everywhere which would be stupid. Of course, the splash guards are 100% flexible rubber and if I rand the cart thru and opening that is 50" wide it would fit just fine, and the splash guards would fold down just like they are designed to do. Hey.....go figure. I dunno....If I get someone out there with a tape measure, I will just yank the splash guards off and keep hunting. The splashguards are only held on by plastic grommets anyway....and I have a few dozen in the garage when I lose one now and then to replace the lost ones. *badday*
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2014 14:57:46 GMT -5
Made our 4th trip out to SGL 36 today in search of the designated road for ATV usage for a disabled person. Started off with a positive attitude.......... will leave it at that for now. As I've posted before, the instruction sheet that we got with the permit, states that the road is off of TR348. According to Google maps and the PGC interactive map, this road should be Deep Hollow Road. When physically there, the sign is different: Following the route provided by davet, we found the Parking Area off of Deep Hollow, and took the road that led us to the 2nd parking area. This is where we hoped to find a gate, and some signage for the ATV accessible road. We found a gate, and it was open, but there was also a sign that was permitting ALL traffic beyond. Nothing about handicap accessibility or designated road. Well, we weren't too happy with this for 2 reasons: 1) no sign saying this was the road we were looking for, and 2) being open to all traffic kind of negates the need for an ATV or the permit. (Underneath the "Open to Travel" sign was the "Closed to All Motorized Traffic "sign) But, we decided to push on, and see what the rest of the reported 9 miles to the Kellogg Mountain Tower site looked like. After less than 2 miles we came to this: The only other signage in the area was the standard stuff: We decided to get out and explore a bit, and found a trail that was too small for a truck. After following it for a bit, it looped around the gate and back to the road on the other side. Still nothing that tells us that this is the right road, or the wrong road, or anything. I guess now we are only left with making phone calls and writing letters. This has gone beyond the frustrating, and we have spent too many hours and too much gas trying to find something that should be easily found, easily accessible and intuitive. Thanks to all for all the help and assistance here. We gave it the best try we could, and are only left now with contacting individuals until we get answers and results. Thanks again.
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Post by galthatfishes on Oct 10, 2014 6:28:34 GMT -5
Best of luck to you. I can't imagine.
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Post by davet on Oct 10, 2014 8:13:55 GMT -5
Ok, Rkeving, I re-read what we had previously posted and here is what I just did:
#1--I looked at this gameland and determined that it was under the control of the Northeastern Regional Game Commission branch. I went to that web site and obtained the following information:
Serving the following Counties: Bradford, Carbon, Columbia, Lackawanna, Luzerne, Monroe, Montour, Northumberland, Pike, Sullivan, Susquehanna, Wayne, Wyoming
3917 Memorial Highway Dallas, PA 18612
Open Monday - Friday 7:30AM - 4:00PM
(570) 675-1143 (570) 675-1144
#2--So, I called the first number....it was busy, so I called the second number and waited until I got a fellow who appeared to be a WCO, or someone who knew what he was talking about. I told him that I did not personally hunt this game land (Game land #36) but that I was a disabled hunter and I knew another disabled hunter who was having a difficult time locating a disabled access road that was suppose to be off of Deep Hollow Road. I told him there was a sign that indicated the road was suppose to be open, yet the road was not open. So, he told me that he did not have any direct knowledge about this road, but it was very likely that the road had a washout from one of our most recent storms, and the land manager determined that it would be of some danger to open the road at this time. He also told me that the road was likely on the "to be fixed" list, but he did not know when that would be. However, he did say that if you would call them, he would put a call into the Land Manager and said Land Manager would call you back and tell you why said road was closed, and tell you a likely date when it would be reopened.
#3--Now, being a former business owner I do have some understanding of why this fellow would "couch" his statements this way, and why he would say to "talk to the land manager." When my firm would hit tax season we had a pile of people come into our office with their "stuff." Now, as humans being humans, everyone wanted their "stuff" done tomorrow. Of course, we, having only so many people (a limited amount of resources or staff) can only do so much in a given time period. So, it's impossible to do everything by tomorrow. I'm sure it's that way with the PGC land managers. Everyone want's everything done tomorrow. It can't happen. I've ask the folks who work at SGL 51 for a few issues that I've come across there if it was possible to do or "clean up" a few things, and they were very helpful in doing it. But, like anything else it got on their "to do" list and got done.....but on their time frame. They, like anyone else, have priorities that need taken care of. But, make the call to the office and ask for the Land Manager to call you. Find out when the road will be open. If the Land Manager now knows that a Paraplegic is waiting for this, I would bet he will do everything he can to move it up on his list....if that's possible. But right now, he doesn't know that. So, plant "the seeds" and politely ask him if it's possible and if he could give you a target date if he would know that.
FWIW
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 9:53:27 GMT -5
I appreciate the reply and the further investigation. I sent in an email to Game Commission (Harrisburg), detailing the story so far, and providing them a link to this thread too, but haven't heard back yet. Even if the road is in need of repair, and temporarily closed, there should still be the Handicap signage up, as well as a notice of the road being under construction. As a disabled individual yourself, you can imagine how frustrating and time consuming it would be, to go through all the processes and time to physically get there, and then to be halted part way, due to a construction issue. Again, why not have all of this information (handicap placard and road construction information) right at the Parking area and readily viewable and accessible? If this were a public building, and more so, a state or government building, there is no way this would fly with the ADA policies. Also, according to the PGC website, certain access roads are open for limited times to ALL hunters. Checking on the Northeast region, this road from Deep Hollow Road is open for the approximate 2 miles that we drove it: www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=1215686&mode=2SGL 36 BRADFORD COUNTY Seasons Open Open from 2 weeks prior to the start of the archery deer season until the end of grouse season in January. Also open from the Friday before the youth hunt in April until the end of the Spring Gobbler Season. Bradford County - .5 mile north from T348, Deep Hollow Road to parking area at top of mountain. Therefore, the "open road" that we discovered, does not get us any closer to finding the "designated road" that should be available to ATV permitted individuals year round.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2014 10:18:10 GMT -5
OK, just got off the phone with Dallas office, and the WCO there was just getting ready to reply to my email, that I sent last night.
He informed me that this issue was being taken care of today, and that the gate that we encountered is due for replacement, and will be modified to be accessible for disabled ATV usage.
Also, the signage at the designated road should, and will have the Handicap placard that identifies it as the correct road.
We discussed the discrepancy between Deep Hollow Road being "348" or "372", and he informed me that Deep Hollow was indeed the correct road, and that the township road number would need investigation.
So, hopefully this answers all of my questions and helps my frustrations subside quite a bit. We will need to make trip number 5 out there to verify all the above and to familiarize ourselves with the signage and the regulations that go along with the ATV usage.
Once again, very many thanks to all who contributed here and offered advice, especially to davet and buzz.
I apologize for using this forum to vent my whining and frustration, but am glad that it looks like we have resolved this issue, and more importantly, my son can experience the hunting and outdoors that he desires to.
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