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Post by Dutch on Jan 20, 2014 13:34:01 GMT -5
BINGO!
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Post by bushmaster on Jan 20, 2014 14:11:40 GMT -5
Boy, more crossbow debate, just can't get enough of it!!!!!  |
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Post by dougell on Jan 20, 2014 14:18:25 GMT -5
After several years of debating this issue and some soul searching,I've come to the conclusion that more good will come out of full inclusion than bad.I don't care who uses one or why at this point.The only thing that bothers me is that For some reason people feel the need to legitimize why they use one by saying they don't offer any significant advantages.Who really cares at this point?A dead deer is a dead deer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2014 14:21:05 GMT -5
Boy, more crossbow debate, just can't get enough of it!!!!! kinda like a character on a soap opera--- doesn't matter how many time they get killed off, they just keep coming back. |
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Post by dougell on Jan 20, 2014 14:31:51 GMT -5
The debate for the most part is over.Most people have moved on.I know plenty of people who still don't like crossbows being included but stopped complaining about them.The only way we'll see an uproar is if theseasons are impacted in the future.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 20, 2014 15:09:20 GMT -5
m.The only way we'll see an uproar is if theseasons are impacted in the future. If seasons structures changes are based on data, it won't happen. But, we have several commissioners that have been weighing social and emotional issues much more heavily than in the past. I think there is a big push right now behind the scenes to move away from science based led by a few from within. It won't come up if they don't have the votes but I am pretty sure there are some heavy discussions going on right now. Anyways, according to the PGC, we have lost 250,000 rifle hunters. Yet, some hunters still wish to focus on the impact from 30,000 new archery hunters and crossbow inclusion. |
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Post by dougell on Jan 20, 2014 15:20:48 GMT -5
Well,like you I see hunter's numbers taking a big nose dive over the next several years.If that happens,the impact of crossbows will be even less.I think we'll continue to see some what of a shift from rifle to archery season harvests but the overall numbers will go down,not up.Eventually,we'll struggle just to manage the herd with the number of hunters out there.What weapons are being used will be insignificant.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 20, 2014 15:23:47 GMT -5
At our peak, I think it was 1998, there were 328,000 hunters that paid for an archery permit.
Back then, even youth had to buy a permit if they wanted to hunt in archery season. Since 1998, we now have a youth combo tag that includes an archery permit, so, we really no longer know EXACTLY how many people are hunting in archery season.
I think we sold 310,000 archery permits this year, up from about 260,000 a couple years ago. Those are all sold to adults.
I do not know if any of the senior licenses include an archery stamp, like our youth combo does.
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 10:20:11 GMT -5
Another 50,000 permits isn't anything to sneeze at.It will be interesting to see if that trend continues or if people start losing interest was they try it.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 21, 2014 11:18:12 GMT -5
No, 50,000 isn't anything to sneeze at BUT, the peak was higher in the past.
I'd like to think that when people find another way to pursue hunting, it really isn't a bad thing, in general.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 21, 2014 11:51:58 GMT -5
No, 50,000 isn't anything to sneeze at BUT, the peak was higher in the past. I'd like to think that when people find another way to pursue hunting, it really isn't a bad thing, in general. Yep. The trend will continue for some time yet, than plateau. The trend of decreasing rifle participation will also continue unabated I think. |
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 21, 2014 11:59:07 GMT -5
Aside from me being a member of PETA and also trying to destroy hunting from within by dividing hunters, I will stand by the points I made. If there was not mention of those issues coming from PGC employees and commissioners, I would never have brought it up.
Now, back to my agenda of ending hunting!
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 12:36:35 GMT -5
I missed this one before. I would like to see a study on crossbow poaching and also crossbow wounding. There have been reports in the media, including the Game News, where WCO's and commissioners mentioned these topics. I believe both issues are, or have the potential to be very serious. I know my side lost the crossbow war and I probably sound like a sore loser to most. But, if there is nothing to hide, prove me wrong. I suspect when WCO's are complaining in the media, there is something to it. I also would suggest looking at how many bucks are being killed before or during the rut. Basically, it is now legal to shoot bucks during the rut in PA with a weapon as effective inside 60 yds as a rifle, at least when it comes to HITTING the deer. All the pictures of little kids shooting deer with crossbows proves it is very, very, easy. If not, 7 year olds would not be shooting so many! Besides the license sales, there may be serious harm being done to the very valuable PA deer resource. The two issues need weighed out. Instead, all of the focus is on the license sales. I think that is wrong. I don't disagree with much of this post.Crossbows are easier and there isn't much to debate.I bought my 8 year old one for Christmas and we've shot it quite a bit.This thing has a point blank range of about 33 yards.It's fast enough that the next crosshair down is on at 45 yards.If you split to two top crosshairs,it's right on at 40 yards.I have him him shooting at a deer target no closer than 35 yards,standing up with a shooting stick.He hits the vitals every single time and he's been doing that since day one.He shoots more than a couple thousands round of rimfire and centerfire a year so he probably isn't the typical 8 year old.Still,I probably won't hesitate to let him take a 35 yard shot from a rest.That wouldn't be possible with a compound.Is it a 60 yard weapon?I haven't played with it much at that distance but I'M pretty confident that it is,given you know the exact range.In any event,it's a 40 yard weapon all day long without having to judge distance like you'd have to with a bow.Is it still archery?Not in my opinion.Should they be legal in archery season?At this point,I don't see why not even though I have no interest in using one.You still have to get relatively close even though the effective range is every bit of 35-50% more with a crossbow for the average guy.Do I Still have concerns?YEP.While recruiting more hunters is good,being a bowhunter is different than hunting with a rifle.Are more deer going to getwounded?Probably but I haven't scene evidence that the impact will be any greater than it always was.As long as they don't impact our season's length,and I don't think they will,all is good. |
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 12:45:52 GMT -5
As far as poaching goes,a poacher could still use one to poach with whether they're a legal weapon or not.You can use a light to hunt predators at night.I'm not sure that increases the amount of poaching.I see where you're coming from,I really do.I just don't think they'll have a huge impact.I know quite a few successful bowhunters that switched to crossbows because they're easier.They're still killing the same number of deer as before.I knowquite a few guys who never bowhunted and picked up a crossbow.Most of them aren't successful but the one's who are are just filling a tag or two during archery season rather than rifle season.The end result is still the same.It's a tool to give more people additional opportunity and I'm cool with that.
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Post by Dutch on Jan 21, 2014 12:48:08 GMT -5
When we allowed compounds, what was the increase of effective range vs tradional equipment?
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Post by TusseyMtman on Jan 21, 2014 12:58:16 GMT -5
The PGC is doing a study to see why people use crossbows. Is that really necessary? I think it is pretty obvious? Who pays for this study? Is it the crossbow industry paying for it?
I was suggesting to Mr Neville some other topics that could be studied. I believe my points to be legit. And, I believe there is discussion within the PGC already about them. As far as the deer team, I would not expect the current deer team to ever oppose any deer dying. And, I say that as a big supporter of the deer program!
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Post by davet on Jan 21, 2014 13:00:03 GMT -5
When we allowed compounds, what was the increase of effective range vs tradional equipment? I think you can conservatively say (using today's very accurate compound bows....and not the first generation one's that were used "back in the day") that an easy 35 yard solid shot with today's compound can be made. Now, when you compare that to a recurve, the recurve was at it's best a 25 yard bow, and that was only in the hands of a capable individual who practiced a lot. However, with today's compounds it's not that difficult to put 6 shots in a 4" group at 35 yards. And 4" is a generous group. An individual who practices with one on a regular basis, and knows the right conditions can easily take a 40 yard shot with todays compound bow. (Again, under the right conditions.) This shot would not be for everyone, but for some, it's right in there. Dave |
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 13:01:54 GMT -5
In the early days,not that much.My old Bear whiteail hunter was barely a 20 yard weapon.With the equipment of today,probably close to double.It's the same with crossbows.The one's 5 years ago were heavy,cumbersome,loud and relatively slow.That isn't the case today and the technology is just starting to emerge.I firmly believe that was intentional.The crossbow I bought my son is lighter than most rifles,narrow,relatively quiet,accurate and crazy fast.It would be a huge advantage for me to use that instead of my compound and I'm deadly with a compound.I passed on at least three different shooting opportunities this year because there was no way to get drawn back because there were too many eyes in my direction.I also passed on a couple that I know I could have shot but the distance was borderline.If I had that crossbow,it would have been much easier.The ned result would still have been the same,which is my point.I only have so many tags and they always all get filled.The weapon wouldn't change that.
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 21, 2014 13:06:46 GMT -5
When we allowed compounds, what was the increase of effective range vs tradional equipment? Some traditionalists still think compound verts are guns, lol. Fact is the difference between traditional gear and compounds are where the biggest differences are found. Not disagreeing with Doug that a top performing crossbow such as his Strykezone shooting 380fps is in the kill zone to 40 yards. Past 40, you had better know the distance. The vast majority of crossbows are shooting 330 or less which places their trajectories right there with compounds. There is so more more to getting the arrow to drop into a kill zone than touching a release on a vert or squeezing a trigger on a crossbow. Comparing either to a firearm shooting flat and 2500fps is ridiculous. |
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 13:07:51 GMT -5
When we allowed compounds, what was the increase of effective range vs tradional equipment? I think you can conservatively say (using today's very accurate compound bows....and not the first generation one's that were used "back in the day") that an easy 35 yard solid shot with today's compound can be made. Now, when you compare that to a recurve, the recurve was at it's best a 25 yard bow, and that was only in the hands of a capable individual who practiced a lot. However, with today's compounds it's not that difficult to put 6 shots in a 4" group at 35 yards. And 4" is a generous group. An individual who practices with one on a regular basis, and knows the right conditions can easily take a 40 yard shot with todays compound bow. (Again, under the right conditions.) This shot would not be for everyone, but for some, it's right in there. Dave I agree if we're talking about modern compounds.Back in the 70's and early 80's,they didn't have much over a recurve,if anything at all.There are some excellent shots out there but if we're talking about the average archer,30 yards is pushing it.We made people take a proficiency test with broadheads every year for a controlled hunt.They had to hit a 6 inch circle 3 out of 4 times at 20 yards.You wouldn't believe how many people can't do that.The results were even more pathetic when we tested the flintlock hunters. |
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 21, 2014 13:13:23 GMT -5
The PGC is doing a study to see why people use crossbows. Is that really necessary? I think it is pretty obvious? Who pays for this study? Is it the crossbow industry paying for it? ! - the commissioners asked form the study - rifle hunting is easier than hunting with a crossbow yet we are losing rifle hunters. Why is archery gaining popularity and rifle diminishing? - the PGC has a in house human dynamics specialist doing the study - is it really obvious why people chose to hunt with crossbows? I happen to know how the first three surveyed answered. I am afraid the answer is not what you envisioned - the crossbow industry has nothing to do with the survey. They are busy filling orders for their customers much to the dismay of the haters |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 13:18:07 GMT -5
I have a shreaded rotator cuff. I think now the other one is starting to go, so those are parts of my reasons. In addition, I just like the extra time in the woods. They are a great way to introduce new hunters to hunting. Crossbows aren't for me. Gal, Dutch, Loggy, Muttley, Ridge, and anyone else that uses a crossbow , doesn't have to justify to me why they want to use a crossbow because it's none of my business. Now that they are included as a bow in the archery season, who am I to tell you what you should use. That's a complete 180 degrees from where I was a few years ago. Like I said here few months ago, "I never gave it much thought iif what I'm doing is the easy way or the hard way. I don't really care because I'm doing it my way and that's good enough for me. So, I don't pay any mind to your way because that's good enough for you ...and you fine folks are good enough for me to learn from. Merry Christmas well said !!! |
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 13:22:39 GMT -5
Past 40, you had better know the distance. The vast majority of crossbows are shooting 330 or less which places their trajectories right there with compounds. There is so more more to getting the arrow to drop into a kill zone than touching a release on a vert or squeezing a trigger on a crossbow. Comparing either to a firearm shooting flat and 2500fps is ridiculous. Read more: pfsc.proboards.com/thread/2814/crossbow-hunters-input?page=5&scrollTo=40155#ixzz2r3doRUNUI agree but knowing the distance is just the push of a button.The technology is in it's infancy,within a few years,the majority of crossbows will be lighter,more narrow,quieter and shooting above 350 fps.How many 400+ models have hit the market over the past two years?I'm not beating on Crossbows Gene but the learning curve and level of difficulty between a crossbow and compound is huge.Shooting a bow really well requires consistant form which takes time and practice to perfect and that all changes assoon as you add cloths,climb a tree and increase your adrenaline.A crossbow requires you to aim and squeeze.There is no comparison between the level of difficulty.That's fine,I'm not looking down at anyone who uses a crossbow.I'm just pointing itout that the difference is huge. The first 5 shots my son took with that crossbow were at thirty yards and all were in the vitals.He's been shooting a compound since he's been able to pull one back and he doesn't always shoot that consistantly at 10 yards and he shoots a lot.They key to being successful with a compound is repetition and more repetition,at all different shooting positions.Muscle memory and concentration are a huge keys to success with a bow and that takes a lot of time.As soon as the weather breaks I'll shoot daily every single morning until hunting season and I still shoot during the season.When a deer comes in to my 35 yard circle of death,I go on auto pilot and they deer leaves with a leak.You simply don't need that kind of preperation with a crossbow.Again,there's nothing wrong with not putting the kind of time in that I do and using a crossbow.There's just a huge difference between the two and I can't believe people try to argue about it. |
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Post by dougell on Jan 21, 2014 13:36:22 GMT -5
There is so more more to getting the arrow to drop into a kill zone than touching a release on a vert or squeezing a trigger on a crossbow. Comparing either to a firearm shooting flat and 2500fps is ridiculous. Read more: pfsc.proboards.com/thread/2814/crossbow-hunters-input?page=5#ixzz2r3k9aN6kNow that's where we disagree.It takes good form and concentration to be truly good with a bow.That's why so mnnay people struggle with target panic.You're brain is doing several different things at the same time.You don't have those issues with a crossbow which is why young kids can use them effectively. |
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Post by ridgecommander on Jan 21, 2014 13:46:17 GMT -5
.How many 400+ models have hit the market over the past two years? Actually, the speed push was about 4 years ago. Recently, the move has been less speed with a focus on making the bow better which is where we are at with compounds now. No doubt. Same as between a compound vert and a longbow. That is often forgotten in these discussions. Most of us are open about the learning curve and why it is a great tool to get people in the game. They still have to learn how to archery hunt. From a rest at a non stationary target? Sure. During hunting, choosing when to raise the crossbows, being able to hold it there, knowing the distance as it changes, reading the deer behavior and picking your shots make it much more than aiming and squeezing. Then why do you feel the need to keep saying it, lol. My angle is only to keep folks such as you on your toes that getting that arrow Into a deer with any archery tackle is much more complex than the bow being used. That seems to be your only focus in these discussion as if you want to prove your bow is harder. A compound is more difficult to master than a crossbow and neither are in the same league as a longbow. Pretty easy concept to understand. I get it. |
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