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Post by redarrow on Oct 5, 2017 5:32:00 GMT -5
I'd guess you mean 80 yard shots with a compound, Dutch? Do you believe many people do that?
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 6:42:39 GMT -5
But these adds are clearly looking for a different customer than an older hunter with life long health issues. And who cares. Every new hunting gadget that hits the market has some clever ad campaign attached to it. The Mission ad plays up 1 inch 100 yard groups. At the factory shoot, prior to its release, the experts were happy with elk vitals at 100 yards. I can do that with any crossbow in good conditions. Now, under perfect conditions with hand selected arrows, many crossbows are capable of very tight groups at 100 yards. Heck, I have seen some amazing 100 yard groups from vertical archers as well under prefect conditions. But we all know that shooting arrows at animals in hunting conditions is different than shooting targets at the range, right? It won't take long for folks with no archery experience to figure out that 100 yard shots at critters is a tough road to hoe. Hell, some consider me an crossbow "expert" and I have never shot an animal past 42 yards. Even with the top of the line equipment. |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 6:43:55 GMT -5
I'd guess you mean 80 yard shots with a compound, Dutch? Do you believe many people do that? More than you think. And over 100 yard shots on desert sheep. |
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Post by GlennD on Oct 5, 2017 6:48:22 GMT -5
One of the real "bad" things about these crossbows is bolt speed. Advertising a crossbow as capable of sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards just encourages people to take longer shots. With an arrow speed of 350 fps, a deer can take two steps at 100 yards before the bolt gets there. :/
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 6:52:12 GMT -5
One of the real "bad" things about these crossbows is bolt speed. Advertising a crossbow as capable of sub 1 inch groups at 100 yards just encourages people to take longer shots. With an arrow speed of 350 fps, a deer can take two steps at 100 yards before the bolt gets there. :/ Absolutely. Way too much to go wrong before the arrow gets there. The crossbow community is not too happy with Mission and Ravin regarding their advertising. It is irresponsible and disrespectful to those of us that preach shot selection. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 6:52:54 GMT -5
And people make 80 yd shots on elk So what? Not my thing. I like being close enough to count the animal's eyelashes. IMO, The most incompetent woodsman can get within 80 yards of a deer, or elk as long as the wind is right...and kill it. No offense meant, just how I see it. |
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Post by bowbum on Oct 5, 2017 7:22:40 GMT -5
At close range drawing the bow undetected can certainly be a big part of the challenge. It can. Less than it used to be though. Remember, vertical archers embraced compounds, high let off, releases, and treestands to minimize the draw. They can draw earlier and hold longer than ever before. Huh? Tree stands aren't reserved for vertical archers ....? As much as one tries to make it look easy, any archer who draws too far ahead of time for the shot, (because of high let off), won't be very happy with the result. The skill is in being able to judge and draw when the shot is eminent and to maintain the strength to hold long enough to get the best shot angle at the right distance. Thinking that you can draw and hold for some outrageous period ahead of the shot is foolhardy. Releases do not guarantee anything either. Many, many things help all hunters to be more steady and provide anchor points. With rifles, a rest provides assistance and no one condemns or belittles those who use a rest. In traditional archery a good hand grip design, good finger tabs or gloves are of great help. To infer that a release somehow is a short cut or a real bonus of an aid is to say finger tabs are taking the "toughness" out of traditional archery.  |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 7:39:44 GMT -5
It can. Less than it used to be though. Remember, vertical archers embraced compounds, high let off, releases, and treestands to minimize the draw. They can draw earlier and hold longer than ever before. Huh? Tree stands aren't reserved for vertical archers ....? Never said vert guys were the only ones to embrace them. The fact is vert guys hunt high to make drawing easier and also to help scent control. If the draw was so important to some of the anti crossbow crowd. they would be hunting on the ground. I agree. All I have been saying is the difficulty of the draw has been greatly reduced through new technologies. One still has to draw and the draw cannot be held forever. Never said that they guarantee anything. What I did say was that releases, especially the wrist strap models where the weight is not held through the fingers, are an aid to assist the draw and allow a longer hold time. It may make you want to puke but the fact is that releases are an aid to make the hunt easier. That is all I am saying. |
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Post by buzz on Oct 5, 2017 7:56:10 GMT -5
I was at the local gun shop yesterday. Took the time to get some education on crossbows.
The owner is a friend, so we went over a few models........including the ravin that claims 100 yard accuracy , @425fps.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 8:32:13 GMT -5
I was at the local gun shop yesterday. Took the time to get some education on crossbows. The owner is a friend, so we went over a few models........including the ravin that claims 100 yard accuracy , @425fps. Those speeds have been around for 10 years. Most crossbow manufacturers are focusing on ergonomics and shootability today. We saw the same thing happen in the vertical market. It was all about speed for awhile then the manufacturers took a step back and started to focus on other things. The new Mission crossbow is a prime example. The are shelving their entire previous product line that is faster than the Sub-1 and went with a 350 fps crossbow to launch the new line. It is super smooth, compact, with top notch fit an finish. That is what many crossbow shooters prefer. |
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Post by buzz on Oct 5, 2017 8:45:33 GMT -5
There certainly was a significant difference in weight between them. Thanks for info, I will continue to learn about them, probably buy one at some point.............maybe if I wait til next year, they will have a 200 yards version out.....  |
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Post by bowbum on Oct 5, 2017 10:49:37 GMT -5
Huh? Tree stands aren't reserved for vertical archers ....? Never said vert guys were the only ones to embrace them. It may make you want to puke but the fact is that releases are an aid to make the hunt easier. That is all I am saying. Well, as you walk backwards be careful not to trip. Your entire posts was targeted to "vertical archers" and all of these wildly exaggerated advantages, whilst remaining silent on the improvements that traditional archers, and all other hunters use. Such rattling along only helps divide our ranks. "vertical archers embraced compounds, high let off, releases, and treestands" |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 11:28:09 GMT -5
Never said vert guys were the only ones to embrace them. It may make you want to puke but the fact is that releases are an aid to make the hunt easier. That is all I am saying. Well, as you walk backwards be careful not to trip. Your entire posts was targeted to "vertical archers" and all of these wildly exaggerated advantages, whilst remaining silent on the improvements that traditional archers, and all other hunters use. Such rattling along only helps divide our ranks. "vertical archers embraced compounds, high let off, releases, and treestands" Of course it was targeted at vertical archers as that is who I was directing my comments at. I can target whoever I want with a post and that does not mean that others are not doing the same thing. What divides our ranks, Bowbum, are hunters that want to divide us into groups and fight from different corners against those that are not friendly to our sport. My claims about vertical archery technologies making it easier to draw and easier to hold the draw longer are not wildly exaggerated. If you think that a modern day compound bow with all of the goodies set a 65 pounds is not easier to draw and hold for a longer period of time than a 65 pound compound from 40 yearsago, I would ask you who is really blowing smoke? |
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Post by dougell on Oct 5, 2017 12:20:03 GMT -5
I don't care how strong you are,even at 80% letoff,you aren't holding a bow for more than a minute and shooting it accurately.I don't say this to be arrogant but I'm harder than the lips on a woodpecker.I can bench press 405lbs @ 198lbs and I'm not holding my draw for more than a minute.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 12:35:45 GMT -5
I shoot my compound better the I do my rifle. I don't see the challenge that some like to create for them. I really need to get practicing with my longbow. That's next on my list just have to find the time to practice with it.
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 13:26:18 GMT -5
I don't care how strong you are,even at 80% letoff,you aren't holding a bow for more than a minute and shooting it accurately.I don't say this to be arrogant but I'm harder than the lips on a woodpecker.I can bench press 405lbs @ 198lbs and I'm not holding my draw for more than a minute. How heavy is your bow? It sounds like you could lower your draw weight 20 pounds, still shoot through a deer, but be able to hold it for at least double that. How long could you hold the same bow at 40% letoff? Are you claiming that today's modern compounds are not easier to draw smoothly and hold for longer periods of time that they were 30 years ago? |
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Post by dougell on Oct 5, 2017 13:45:46 GMT -5
I don't care how strong you are,even at 80% letoff,you aren't holding a bow for more than a minute and shooting it accurately.I don't say this to be arrogant but I'm harder than the lips on a woodpecker.I can bench press 405lbs @ 198lbs and I'm not holding my draw for more than a minute. How heavy is your bow? It sounds like you could lower your draw weight 20 pounds, still shoot through a deer, but be able to hold it for at least double that. How long could you hold the same bow at 40% letoff? Are you claiming that today's modern compounds are not easier to draw smoothly and hold for longer periods of time that they were 30 years ago? I shoot an Elite impulse set at 70lbs with 80% letoff.I personally think it has a pretty harsh draw cycle with a noticeable bump at the end of the draw cycle before giving in to a very solid back wall.It's harsh.If you relax your back at all,it will rip your shoulders out of their sockets.You cannot relax at full draw.You have to keep constant pressure and you're not holding it for more than a minute and making an accurate shot.I'm not claiming anything other than you aren't drawing on an approaching deer and holding the bow for several minutes.It's no different than doing a wall sit with no weight.It's pretty easy for a while and then you want to cry. |
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Post by Muab Dib on Oct 5, 2017 15:05:38 GMT -5
So why don't we just use a rifle in archery season and be done with it.....
Muab (Not pointed at anyone)
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Post by bowbum on Oct 5, 2017 15:42:24 GMT -5
Well, as you walk backwards be careful not to trip. Your entire posts was targeted to "vertical archers" and all of these wildly exaggerated advantages, whilst remaining silent on the improvements that traditional archers, and all other hunters use. Such rattling along only helps divide our ranks. "vertical archers embraced compounds, high let off, releases, and treestands" Of course it was targeted at vertical archers as that is who I was directing my comments at. I can target whoever I want with a post and that does not mean that others are not doing the same thing. What divides our ranks, Bowbum, are hunters that want to divide us into groups and fight from different corners against those that are not friendly to our sport. My claims about vertical archery technologies making it easier to draw and easier to hold the draw longer are not wildly exaggerated. If you think that a modern day compound bow with all of the goodies set a 65 pounds is not easier to draw and hold for a longer period of time than a 65 pound compound from 40 yearsago, I would ask you who is really blowing smoke? "Never said vert guys were the only ones to embrace them." Yup! You tried to weasel away from your target. "All" technologies in hunting, whether it be compound bow archers, long bow archers, rifle users, muzzle loader hunters or crossbow users have been embraced by those users....and are far advanced beyond what they were 40 years ago. Why not tell us something we don't already know that is of significance? |
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Post by davet on Oct 5, 2017 15:50:50 GMT -5
So why don't we just use a rifle in archery season and be done with it..... Muab (Not pointed at anyone) Good point. My next crossbow will have a minimum of 1100fps. That's only half the speed of a turdy-turdy. stirthepot |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 18:22:51 GMT -5
"All" technologies in hunting, whether it be compound bow archers, long bow archers, rifle users, muzzle loader hunters or crossbow users have been embraced by those users....and are far advanced beyond what they were 40 years ago. We agree. You missing the point, I think. Some here bitch and moan about others utilizing certain technologies to make their hunt easier when they have also embraced different technologies to make their hunts easier as well. It is a hypocritical angle. |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 5, 2017 18:23:55 GMT -5
So why don't we just use a rifle in archery season and be done with it..... Muab (Not pointed at anyone) Cause it ain't archery hunting. |
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Post by bawanajim on Oct 5, 2017 19:11:55 GMT -5
Maub, wording is the only difference. You know it, I know it, and so do every one that is not making money from it, knows is, and this is exactly why our government does not work !
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Post by redarrow on Oct 6, 2017 4:52:00 GMT -5
I'd guess you mean 80 yard shots with a compound, Dutch? Do you believe many people do that? More than you think. And over 100 yard shots on desert sheep. It's a very, very small percentage of archery kills. |
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Post by ridgecommander on Oct 6, 2017 6:28:11 GMT -5
More than you think. And over 100 yard shots on desert sheep. It's a very, very small percentage of archery kills. Very true. The same with crossbows. |
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