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Post by richg on Dec 30, 2012 15:39:07 GMT -5
and alot of it depends where a person hunts.My son's father in law hunts a 2,000 acre lease in the northeast and does well.He said the public land up there is almost deerless and wouldn't hunt if that's all he had.So a person's perception on deer hunting can depend on where or what he has to hunt.
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 16:12:33 GMT -5
Rich, upstate, it takes a 3 year old doe to drop twins.
If the does are being hammered, fewer does make it to that age and thus, you'll see fewer twins. Sorta like we had with bucks before antler restrictions. To much pressure on a segment of the population, lowers the average age of that segment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 17:12:06 GMT -5
Mutt, there has never ben a time when deer were equally distributed and there should not be. Some places can support more than others and some places that didn;t have many deer in the past, now have more. No hunter is entitled to have deer at their back door.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 17:21:56 GMT -5
gotta keep the customers happy like it or not people just get fed up and stop buying licenses.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 17:37:10 GMT -5
No you do not have to keep people happy that want the wrong thing! That is exactly what got us to this point. If they don't like it, let them quit! From what I have seen, there are a whole lot of hunters in this state that can't see a deer when it is in range, I watched it happen time and time again. In addition, hunters are out there on stand texting, playing video games on their cell phones and doing all kinds of thigs that haven't a thing to do with hunting and they then want to complain there are no deer. If they quit, we haven't lost a thing, hunters who know how to find deer will take what is needed. I am to the point where I am so sick of the whining I wish they would all quit!
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Post by Bill on Dec 30, 2012 18:15:10 GMT -5
Fast forward to today. We begin hunting deer the beginning of October (well, actually at the end of September most years). Two weeks later we pursue them with inlines and even rifles are legal for us old eructations. Turkey season has become more important than small game season, so a bunch of us take to the woods the beginning of November for those critters, and now we have bears in most of the state, so more gun hunting the week of Thanksgiving. By the time rifle deer season rolls around, our deer have advanced degrees in hunter avoidance. I believe there is something to this. Every year it seems you never really hear the cries of no deer until rifle season, then it hits the fan. Along with the early muzzy and rifle seasons, throw on top of that all of the bear drives the week before deer season and I think it adds up to less sightings by hunters, especially considering that hunters don't seem to move around during rifle season the way they used to. Sit and wait seems to be the more popular method these days. Deer aren't stupid and know when the pressure is on. I have participated in deer drives in rifle season over the years where you literally had to almost step on them before they'd move. I was a stander on one drive and during the whole drive there was a nice buck laying about thirty yards in front of me and I never knew it was there till it turned it's head after the drivers had passed me by. Had it not done that I would have walked away and it would have never been seen. I feel bad saying this but I truly believe there is a segment of the hunting population that doesn't really know how to hunt deer other than doing it the way they did back when they saw herds of them. I also believe a lot of them are some of the most vocal in the crowd that complains. I could be wrong though. This is kind of unrelated but is there anywhere to find the harvest numbers by individual seasons other than just by antlered and antlerless? I know I used to see them somewhere, maybe the Game News, but I haven't read them in awhile. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 18:29:39 GMT -5
Don't feel bad for saying the truth! There are a lot of hunters who only know go in the woods and sit down and they don't even know where to sit to be successful.
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 18:36:36 GMT -5
John, next year, instead of hunting where you do in Berks County, you are invited to hunt the state forests of SW Tioga County. Then tell us all about the experience.
BTW, great regen. Should be lots of deer there, by now. Funny thing, a couple years ago, I got wind of an email Bodenhorn had sent someone, questioning why the deer herd was not increasing, like he thought it should be, with all the great habitat changes he was seeing.
I'm not asking for the deer numbers of yesteryear, but, I do ask for some thinking outside the box on the part of the PGC biologists.
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 18:40:52 GMT -5
You have to find the press release for the deer harvest, mid March time frame, then go thru it doing the individual seasons. Seems the PGC has a hard time releasing individual season numbers. I guess they are short on calculators???  |
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 19:08:59 GMT -5
I guess what upsets me the most about this situation is that we have many hunters calling other hunters imbeciles because they can't find a deer to kill.
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Post by Bill on Dec 30, 2012 19:13:47 GMT -5
Thanks!
What is the hunting pressure like in the areas of good regeneration that you mentioned. All of my hunting spots up north are in 2F and I can't see how it's even possible for hunters to put a hurting on the deer because it seems to me there is hardly any hunting pressure. It also seemed to me that deer numbers in those areas were up slightly this year.
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Post by galthatfishes on Dec 30, 2012 19:28:19 GMT -5
I think a combination of things eye-
A few places DO have too few deer!
Combine that with the regen, that means deer don't have to go as far to get food, and they stay closer to food sources.
Add, there are no where near the # of hunters up north as there were.
Factor in tree stands-
Deer don't move as much because food is available in more places. Fewer hunters, tree stands and blinds means less movement in the woods pushing deer to other hunters.
And then, some places DO have too few deer.
Hunting isn't easy. You have to know where the deer are and either "luck into" them; or you have to organize to get them.
Lots of things in play.
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Post by Bill on Dec 30, 2012 19:30:42 GMT -5
I guess what upsets me the most about this situation is that we have many hunters calling other hunters imbeciles because they can't find a deer to kill. I personally don't think they're imbeciles, although I do believe there are some that stubbornly hold on to methods that don't work anymore and areas that don't produce. Let's face it, there are areas in this state that are probably never going to have a lot of deer for whatever reasons. There also seems to be an underlying sentiment that they are owed a deer or seeing deer by the PGC, which I do not agree with. I also believe that the hunting shows of today are creating a group of hunters that do not really know how to hunt. If that makes me a bad guy, then so be it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2012 19:32:19 GMT -5
The thing that gets me is there are places where the deer numbers are down from years ago and there isn't a change in the forest other then it is getting thinner and thinner. Woods with thick cover is no more you can see 100 yds in most places. Lower deer numbers should have the forests coming back right?
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 19:45:24 GMT -5
Eye, the hunters I know that are pretty discouraged now, NEVER felt they were owed a deer or massive numbers of them. These were guys that supported the PGC, but not so much now. They no longer feel it's worth the gas money or time to even drive upstate to hunt for deer.
Sad.
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Post by dalesholder on Dec 30, 2012 19:55:14 GMT -5
I think that everytime I head to camp for a few days. I have been a member since 1980 and from then to now have taken 6 bucks there. Dont get me wrong I had chances at my share for whatever reason missed or didnt have shots but we have never had the numbers of deer there. Nothing there to eat we have no oaks mostly cherry ash beech hard and striped maple and birch. When we had beechnuts we had deer but since the beech have been dying off dont have them that often. Since AR we have gottena total of 3 bucks the 1 this year was the first in 7 years for the camp. Granted we dont hunt as hard nor do we have many guys but if I wanted a realistic chance at a buck I wouldnt hunt there. Last few deer I have taken have all been within a mile or less of my house . I see deer most times Iam out here altho seeing and getting are 2 differant things. I understand guys fryustration with not seeing anything if I had to hunt at camp all the time I would be complaing as well.
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Post by Bill on Dec 30, 2012 19:57:27 GMT -5
Dutch I understand that, I really do. It's just not limited to the northern areas there are plenty of people here in 2D that think the herd has been decimated. This in one of the most deer rich WMU's in the state. There are less deer than before, but they are not even close to being decimated. It just gets frustrating hearing it all the time.
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Post by galthatfishes on Dec 30, 2012 20:13:59 GMT -5
Glenn, where in Washington Co? I lived there most of my life.
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Post by Dutch on Dec 30, 2012 21:38:56 GMT -5
Eye, if not mistaken, 2D has one of the highest populations, per sq mile of any unit where the PGC makes estimates.
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Post by richg on Dec 30, 2012 21:38:56 GMT -5
John, next year, instead of hunting where you do in Berks County, you are invited to hunt the state forests of SW Tioga County. Then tell us all about the experience. BTW, great regen. Should be lots of deer there, by now. Funny thing, a couple years ago, I got wind of an email Bodenhorn had sent someone, questioning why the deer herd was not increasing, like he thought it should be, with all the great habitat changes he was seeing. I'm not asking for the deer numbers of yesteryear, but, I do ask for some thinking outside the box on the part of the PGC biologists. He doesn't need to travel to Tioga,middlecreek and gretna are right next door. ;D |
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Post by bake545 on Dec 30, 2012 22:05:56 GMT -5
Eye, if not mistaken, 2D has one of the highest populations, per sq mile of any unit where the PGC makes estimates. While there might be pockets of few deer in 2D for the most part I'd say anyone complaining about a lack of deer there isn't getting out of the truck much. Lots of posted ground though and probably fewer people moving them. Even guys I hunt with sometimes complain but even in places with plenty of deer sometimes you just don't see any. |
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Post by dougell on Dec 30, 2012 22:58:55 GMT -5
I know your comment about deer getting much smarter was tongue in cheek, Loggy, but you made a pretty good point with it anyway. While the average IQ of deer is probably the same as it was shortly after the great flood, deer do learn from experience. In the 1950s we had a two week deer season, what is now our rifle deer season. We had doe seasons sometimes and sometimes not. In short, the deer were pursued with malice for only a short period of time. Still, I do remember that I saw the most deer on the first day, and most days after that they were kinda skittish. We used to spend most of November hunting pheasants in the local cornfields. A few of us hunted squirrels or grouse as an excuse to scout for deer. Actually there was no hunting to amount to anything prior to the beginning of small game season. The deer were pretty comfortable except for those two weeks. Fast forward to today. We begin hunting deer the beginning of October (well, actually at the end of September most years). Two weeks later we pursue them with inlines and even rifles are legal for us old eructations. Turkey season has become more important than small game season, so a bunch of us take to the woods the beginning of November for those critters, and now we have bears in most of the state, so more gun hunting the week of Thanksgiving. By the time rifle deer season rolls around, our deer have advanced degrees in hunter avoidance. Hunting for the reduced population of deer is tougher, and you have to work harder at it. For some, working hard at it means sitting in a tree stand all day. For others it means still hunting and covering a lot of ground. For darned near none of us it means driving for others and taking our turn on stand when it comes up. You do what works for you. So, maybe the deer are not actually greater intellects on four feet, but we do train them earlier in the year. Respectfully Mutt,I disagree.Twenty to thirty years ago,the woods and fields were full of mall game hunters from the beginning of October.I've yet to encounter a youth,senior ot muzzleloader hunter in the field during October and I rarely ever see another hunter during rifle season or archery season on public land.The deer are harassed far less than humans than they used to be and they aren't any smarter. |
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Post by dougell on Dec 30, 2012 23:09:21 GMT -5
Too mant does being killed in alot of areas.It's that simple. Here's an example,here in lancaster county our wmu hands out boatloads of anterless tags.With more and more land getting posted where do all those hunters go?On the public lands and they hammer the crap out of them.The local gamelands has outstanding habitat with great soil to boot yet very very few deer.It gets overhunted. As for coyotes they might have been around for awhile but the populations have exploded in recent years.Back in the 70,s through early eighties I rarely if ever heard or seen coyotes.Now it's every time I go to the cabin.We either hear them at night or see them in day.Since they have increased our rabbit pops have gone to practically nothing.I've seen yotes running adult deer quite a few times and once in awhile they will kill one.In deep snow they'll run them till they're plum out of energy.I used to see alot more twin and triplet fawns but not much anymore.I blame the increase in yotes.Trust me,in our area habitat isn't an issue. We have great habitat to support alot more deer but with almost all the land open to hunting in combination with low deer numbers and more yotes the numbers just stay low and inch lower every year.It's frustrating.Doug says he has deer over his way so maybe I'll have to start making the close to an hour drive.Or the PGC could cut the anterless allocations for 2E.  Rich,I live up here and average seeing one yote about every other year.Haven't seen one since the first day of bear in 2011.I see tracks and occasionally hear them but definately wouldn't condiser it any type of population expolosion. I hunt where expect to see deer and I generally find them without difficulty.Deer's needs constantly change around here and you just have to understand what deer need at certain times of the year.We have about 16-18 inches of snow right now.I don't expect to find deer on high ridgtops or put in fields feeding.I expect to find them near stream bottoms with sufficient browse and thrmal cover nearby.I took my flinter for a walk yesterday after my son't wrestling tournament.I still hunted along the top edge of a pine bottom that had the upper end cut about 5 years ago.Tracks were everywhere.In less than two hours,I saw ten deer.Unfortunately,my offhnad shooting ability with a flintlock leaves a lot to be desired.According to many,there were no deer in this area and it was a waste of time to hunt.The PGC killed all the deer with dmap tags. |
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Post by adudeuknow on Dec 31, 2012 6:11:29 GMT -5
I'll go anywhere in the state you tell me and guarantee a harvest! I'll keep it public for good measure!
But then again, I am one of those lowly guys with no children that dedicates a good bit of all 12 months out of the year to knowing where I need to be. I somehow manage to work and spend a ton of time with my wife as well!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 6:22:45 GMT -5
The thing that gets me is there are places where the deer numbers are down from years ago and there isn't a change in the forest other then it is getting thinner and thinner. Woods with thick cover is no more you can see 100 yds in most places. Lower deer numbers should have the forests coming back right? They do in most areas, stroupy. From an ecology standpoint, there is no such thing as too few deer, but there can be too many, and that is where the problem lies. In the past we were given some figures that might help. In a recent clear cut with lots of sprout growth it was said that as many as 40 deer per square mile could be supported by that, but only for a few years. When the successional growth gets into pole stage where there is little in the way of stuff to eat below four feet into the air, about 5 deer per square mile can live. In mature forest with a relatively closed canopy you can support between 10 and 20 deer per square mile. I have been in some areas on habitat tours where the population of deer was about 6/sq mi and it was overbrowsed. On the other hand, in some successional habitat not too far away from that site, 20 deer/sq mi had not done horrible damage. The number of deer per square mile that an area can support varies tremendously from place to place based upon how fertile the soil is, whether it is on north or south facing slope, what the predominant plant cover species are, and the history of overbrowsing. In some areas of the northcentral (2G), overbrowsing has been going on for such a long time that there are no seeds left in the soil to regrow the forest. Stump growth on some species has been systematically eaten until it does not occur anymore. Left to itself with no intervention by man it might take decades for the forest to recover. For it to take place faster it would take major effort to restore those forests to where they can support a normal (for that stage of growth) population of deer. Couple that with the expanding bear and coyote populations that do have an effect upon fecundity and you have a situation in which there are too few deer to make hunters happy. Again, the plants in the forest do not care how many deer there are. The forest would exist quite well without one single deer in it, but that would not be too nice for us hunters. It is a tricky balancing act to match the number of deer to what the forest can support without damage, to what hunters want to see, and the problem is that for nearly a century our game managers didn't even try. We are paying the penalty for that mismanagement now. Two photos from a tour that some of us attended in 2008 might be of help. These were taken on Terrace Mountain on the eastern side of Lake Raystown. This area at the time had about six deer per square mile and was dmaped. In the first photo taken outside of a fenced cutover you can see how overbrowsed the area is.  The second photo shows how nicely regeneration occurs when most deer are excluded.  What the heck. one more photo. This is a picture of a thirty (30) year old ash tree, showing the effects of browsing:  |
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