This season has changed my perspective

[Deleted]

dougell, over the last couple of years I have torn into this PA deer stuff. I *think* I'm fairly well versed in the players and their positions, but I'm not as familiar with the legislators and have only became more aware of those players through this group.

Of course, the knowledge hasn't quite trickled down enough to make me a better hunter... yet! I'm trying, and I completely agree that this research and learning about the biology behind it all is where it's at.

Does the PGC website list habitat tours?

[Deleted]

Oh, and by the way, a while back on a complete whim I asked the PGC if they could provide maps of early successional habitat... I was thinking with the lazy part of my brain... shhh!

Here's what they said:

"The PGC is working on mapping it across the state on state game lands. Also as part of an initiative for golden-winged warblers, the agency is expanding coverage outside of game lands. Many public landowners, such as DCNR, are also doing their own mapping. Hope that helps, bureauofwildlifehabtatmanagement@pgc

there is a huge mapping project going on at the moment. The plan is make lots of the information available to the public; hopefully by next summer."

So, those of us who couldn't identify early succesional habitat from a Walmart parking lot may have a tool and a way to learn. I'm sure if I took a walk with a PGC biologist (or one you guys & gals here) I could learn that way too.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 13:22:43 GMT -5 moosemike said:

One thing I will say about my PA deer hunting is that I will be finding new places to hunt for 2013. Entirely new places. Lebanon and Lancaster counties are just too overrun with hunters and Hillsgrove Sullivan county has way too many deer camps which leads to too many hunters. I'm going to find me a place on public land where the hunting pressure tails off after the third day like some of these game lands you guys are talking about.

If you are serious about looking for greener pastures, I believe you will want to concentrate on the half of the state west of the Susquehanna. I can suggest a few areas where hunting pressure after the first few hours of the first day of rifle season is very low to nonexintant. Check out the maps of state game lands in the south central region at this link:
www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/state_game_lands/11363
and, two state forests (Tuscarora and Rothrock) at the DCNR site:
www.dcnr.state.pa.us/forestry/stateforests/index.aspx
Here are three state game lands to look at if you want a good start. SGL 81 in southern Huntingdon County, SGL 121 just east of Raystown Lake in Huntingdon County, and SGL 99 Which runs from just outside of Three Springs toward the Juniata River in Huntingdon County. All three of these are within a couple of hours of Lancaster.
Tuscarora State Forest has huge tracts of mountain (nearly) wilderness interspersed with farmland in the valleys below. Check out the area close to Orbisonia in southern Huntingdon County. One area in particular for you to think about is Locke's Valley, which is accessed off Rt. 522 just south of Orbisonia. It leads south of Rt. 522 and eventually ends in state forest with a gravel road that goes over Black Log Mountain toward Three Springs. Another would be Blacklog Valley, also south of Orbisonia but leading off to the north.
All of the areas I mentioned above have healthy deer populations in them, as well as turkeys and bears. If you want to do a drive around someday this winter or spring, I can be talked into that. I would prefer to do this before spring gobbler season, but might combine it with a day of trout fishing. Drop me a PM if this floats your boat.

[dougell]

I have a buddy that was our district forester for DCNR.I used to ask him all the time where their timber sales were.He'd freely tell me.They also list them on their website.Get to know the local land manager.I'm sure he's tell you every single place they've cut on the game lands.

[Muab Dib]

Dec 14, 2012 13:23:05 GMT -5 @tbo2 said:

I thought I was better than average still hunter but after reading these posts, I got to slow down.

tbo2: One thing I learned long ago, when still hunting there's no such thing as too slow. The slower you go, the more you glass, the more deer you'll see. Like I said, with each new step a totally new view is to be had. And that's when you see the flick of an ear, the "Y" (neck and ears), the horizontal "line", the black of a nose, the dog leg, or the horn...it is without a doubt the most rewarding way to hunt 'cause when you walk out in 15 minutes what took you hours to cover you know that you were really hunting.

Muab

[dougell]

Dec 14, 2012 13:22:43 GMT -5 moosemike said:

One thing I will say about my PA deer hunting is that I will be finding new places to hunt for 2013. Entirely new places. Lebanon and Lancaster counties are just too overrun with hunters and Hillsgrove Sullivan county has way too many deer camps which leads to too many hunters. I'm going to find me a place on public land where the hunting pressure tails off after the third day like some of these game lands you guys are talking about.

Mike,I hunt from the bottom edge of 2g where it borders I80 to the top edge around Sinnemahoning.Hunting pressure is so light that it's actually eerie if you hunt some of the more remote areas.I'm not talking about walking a long way in either.I'm just talking about getting off the main roads.After the first day,you have the woods to yourself

About four years ago,A guy from the Lancaster area pm'd me on Huntingnet.He and his brother met me on a sunday afternoon in August and I just drove them around to a bunch of places.We never even got out of the truck.That year they called me during the early muzzleloader season to tell me they were dragging a doe out for their 85 year old father.All three of them killed deer that week.I don't remember their names but I'm almost positive that they still come up every year.A neighbor of mine up the road said they come up every year and cut a bunch of firewood for his elderly father.I'm pretty sure it's the same groups of guys.I have no idea how they're doing but they must be doing ok if they're still coming up.

Once again,it's still all a matter of perspective.I wouldn't give anyone the expectation of seeing 20+ deer a day unless you know the area and have a few guys to push.I know there's deer out there and if I see a few each time out,I feel like it was a good day.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 14:21:59 GMT -5 Muab Dib said:

Dec 14, 2012 13:23:05 GMT -5 @tbo2 said:

I thought I was better than average still hunter but after reading these posts, I got to slow down.

tbo2: One thing I learned long ago, when still hunting there's no such thing as too slow. The slower you go, the more you glass, the more deer you'll see. Like I said, with each new step a totally new view is to be had. And that's when you see the flick of an ear, the "Y" (neck and ears), the horizontal "line", the black of a nose, the dog leg, or the horn...it is without a doubt the most rewarding way to hunt 'cause when you walk out in 15 minutes what took you hours to cover you know that you were really hunting.

Muab

Well put, Muab. I would also like to suggest that learning how to look for "parts of deer" is a key skill. Usually you don't see whole deer, but maybe an ear, a tail, or an antler moves, and then you can pick out something more. Another thing is horizontal lines where none exist. That usually translates into the back of a deer. In thick stuff like laurel and pines I sometimes pick out a leg long before I see the deer itself. Last year I actually got so close to a doe and twin fawns that I was within a few feet of stepping on one of them.

[richg]

Something to add about the lumber,we are now importing more from over seas too.Russia sells a lumber comparable to our oak.
Having said that in my opinion the DCNR and Pgc should also timber cut for habitat improvement which is why our grouse biologist is concerned for the future of the ruffed grouse.We all know the gamelands are managed for wildlife and if the lack of demand is there for lumber cuts should still be made.I also firmly believe the DCNR should be responsible for habitat improvement which helps game and non game critters with nesting,food,etc.So if the demand for lumber is low I'd still like to see the DCNR be responsible for creating better habitat on their state owned lands.Stewards of the resource you could say.Now maybe they already do this but I'm not sure to what extent.There's gotta be more of a reason for them to cut then just money.And I'm talking about anything from songbirds,turkey,grouse etc.Deer will benefit from this.
Oh by the way Doug,my legs are now bare.

[dougell]

The game lands have constant habitat improvements being done.State forests?not so much.

Gotta do the armpits as well.

[Deleted]

can anyone tell me what blue markers on trees are for the section of state forest where I hunt has a bunch of trees marked with blue spray paint.

[dougell]

I believe those are trees marked to be cut.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 16:03:29 GMT -5 dougell said:

I believe those are trees marked to be cut.

well they are more along a line not just random trees thought maybe surveying I wonder if I get in hold with the forester if he would tell me anything

[dalesholder]

Could either be a border for a cut or where a road goes in. I used to work for the forestry dept years ago and helped mark timber sales but my old mind doesnt quite remember what blue was used for.

[dougell]

Could be a border cut.Could also be a marking for a trail.I think they use yellow for that but not sure.

[Dutch]

Pretty sure the blue markers are boundaries of a cut.

[Dutch]

Dec 14, 2012 15:25:35 GMT -5 richg said:

Something to add about the lumber,we are now importing more from over seas too.Russia sells a lumber comparable to our oak.
Having said that in my opinion the DCNR and Pgc should also timber cut for habitat improvement which is why our grouse biologist is concerned for the future of the ruffed grouse.We all know the gamelands are managed for wildlife and if the lack of demand is there for lumber cuts should still be made.I also firmly believe the DCNR should be responsible for habitat improvement which helps game and non game critters with nesting,food,etc.So if the demand for lumber is low I'd still like to see the DCNR be responsible for creating better habitat on their state owned lands.Stewards of the resource you could say.Now maybe they already do this but I'm not sure to what extent.There's gotta be more of a reason for them to cut then just money.And I'm talking about anything from songbirds,turkey,grouse etc.Deer will benefit from this.
Oh by the way Doug,my legs are now bare.

Rich, BOTH PGC and DCNR timber, no matter what the timber markets are doing. PGC for habitat and for keeping areas in early successional, and DCNR does them so they have diversity of forests, from early successional all the way up to mature.

In Potter, for example, they are timbering on ridgetops because the maples are in decline on the ridgetops, as well as cherries.

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 17:10:19 GMT -5 Dutch said:

Pretty sure the blue markers are boundaries of a cut.

I could only hope it would really improve the area I sent a email to the forest office to be nosy don't know if they will answer me but it's worth a try.

[Dutch]

Hey cl3, here is some dated material, but still very interesting.

www.fortgrundsow.com/Overbrowsing.html

[Dutch]

More interesting stuff.

www.fortgrundsow.com/deerstudies.html

[Dutch]

And here is what the paint marking mean:

www.fortgrundsow.com/TreeMarkings.html

[Deleted]

Dec 14, 2012 17:23:33 GMT -5 Dutch said:

And here is what the paint marking mean:

www.fortgrundsow.com/TreeMarkings.html

So i guess they are going to timber it I certainly hope so it is an area in need of timbering hasn't had much care in a while

[dougell]

It'll be interesting to see if they fence it.DCNR HASN'T FENCED A CUT IN THIS DISTRICT FOR ABOUT THREE YEARS NOW WHICH IS A WIN-WIN FOR THE DEER AND DCNR.

[Dutch]

... and a win for hunters.

[bghunter]

OK now almost had to laugh, drivein home today about 3:30 pm I saw a couple deer feedin in an over grown field, right behind the posted signs, NICE!!!!

[richg]

Dec 14, 2012 17:13:38 GMT -5 Dutch said:

Dec 14, 2012 15:25:35 GMT -5 richg said:

Something to add about the lumber,we are now importing more from over seas too.Russia sells a lumber comparable to our oak.
Having said that in my opinion the DCNR and Pgc should also timber cut for habitat improvement which is why our grouse biologist is concerned for the future of the ruffed grouse.We all know the gamelands are managed for wildlife and if the lack of demand is there for lumber cuts should still be made.I also firmly believe the DCNR should be responsible for habitat improvement which helps game and non game critters with nesting,food,etc.So if the demand for lumber is low I'd still like to see the DCNR be responsible for creating better habitat on their state owned lands.Stewards of the resource you could say.Now maybe they already do this but I'm not sure to what extent.There's gotta be more of a reason for them to cut then just money.And I'm talking about anything from songbirds,turkey,grouse etc.Deer will benefit from this.
Oh by the way Doug,my legs are now bare.

Rich, BOTH PGC and DCNR timber, no matter what the timber markets are doing. PGC for habitat and for keeping areas in early successional, and DCNR does them so they have diversity of forests, from early successional all the way up to mature.

In Potter, for example, they are timbering on ridgetops because the maples are in decline on the ridgetops, as well as cherries.

Ok thanks Brad.I knew the Pgc did wasn't sure about DCNR.
No armpits Doug,I shaved the one and got a rash.Besides if the amish chicks don't have to shave them neither do I. ;D